~
15. Rav Twersky asserted that two of the four presenters actually spoke about actual Mishcav Zachar.
Response: This is either an absurd fabrication, a gross misreading of the text, an unfortunate delusion, or an outright lie. Mishcav Zachar, as interpreted by the Talmud and Rishonim, is clearly the act of anal intercourse. No one on the panel spoke about, referred to, or even brought up this act. The transcripts and videos are transparent and speak for themselves. Please look up the videos on vimeo.com under the words "YU gaypanel." The assumption of the panel was that this act is explicitly forbidden and must be refrained from. There is no place in any of our words that would lead one to assume that any panelist took part in such an activity. I assume that Rav Twersky made a terribly careless error here, because the alternative is blatant Motzi Shem Ra about fellow Jews, which would actually be a gross Chillul HaShem!
~
Seeing as this point 15 is the reason I wrote my posts (To Deserve and To Sacrifice, The Courage of Yeshiva University: A Feast Unto the Lord) in response to the event, I think I will clarify what precisely it is that I believe the rabbanim are referring to. I was at the event and I'm the one who typed up the unofficial transcript and I noticed these points, so it would stand to reason the rabbanim did, too.
1. Jonathan stated: "And then I thought to myself, not only was this unfair to them but also unfair to me. I also deserve to be loved and craved."
He also stated, "What does this mean for their [his parents'] reputation? But I reasoned that even if it took them 5 years to be okay with it that hopefully by the time I get to my late 20s if I found a guy and want to build a life with him, hopefully my parents will accept him and celebrate smachot with him and go about the minutiae of life with him."
2. Mordechai stated: "Everything clicked at that point. I thought of what my ex-girlfriend said and it finally made sense. And maybe Briskers and Litvaks need to learn it made another kind of sense- in my neshama. What I knew was morally right and fit into the mold of yahadus. I need to find, I need to be true, I need to look at the metzius in my life and learn how to make the mundane holy. But you can’t change the metzius. And I’m going over [he means over the time limit] probably. Yes."
(Now, let's review what his ex-girlfriend told him, namely: " I need someone who makes me feel attractive, like I’m the most attractive person in the world and you do, too.”)
He also said: " We’re not parading being gay. None of us talked about anything we do in the bedroom. That’s private. And I don’t talk about anybody with that except the person- whatever."
~
Mordechai, Jonathan spoke about potentially finding a man to spend the rest of his life with. He stated that he deserves to be loved and craved by a man. You spoke about your ex-girlfriend's words regarding the fact that you should find and you deserve a man who loves you as 'making sense within your neshama' and fitting into 'the mold of yahadus.' You also insinuated that you have a partner when you stated that you don't speak about whatever it is you do in the bedroom except with that person. Both of these statements suggest that you and Jonathan plan to lead or do lead lives in which you break the halakha regarding homosexuality. So indeed, two of the panelists spoke about actual mishkav zachor. Perhaps you did not get into details, but you definitely implied that leading a life in which you break this halakha is in the cards. R' Mayer Twersky did not, as you thought, make a terribly careless error. Rather, he read this transcript very carefully and he caught the allusions you perhaps did not.
An event that was wholly about sensitivity, reaching out and empathizing with those undergoing a terrible struggle is perfectly fine. However, an event in which panelists insinuate that the halakha is wrong, unfair, not something they plan to keep or not something they are currently keeping is of a different tenor entirely. At Wurzweiler, such a discussion would be perfectly appropriate. As an event sponsored in part by an undergraduate club of Yeshiva University, however, it is not. In that respect, R' Mayer Twerksy's point was totally justified.
231 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 231 of 231So, EJB you are sure that any time I am alone in a room with another man, I am violating a biblical issur of yichud, from lo tikrivu (wich doesnt depend on chiba)...(of some in this discussion says is yehareg ve'al yaaver)...
yup, It's obvious. something that everyone should just assume !?
next time, im in a room with two guys, and one guy leaves...i better jump out of the window.
:-)
gl
I never knew yichud was yehareg vi'al ya'avor (I'm pretty sure it isn't). And, the gemara does not derive it from the pasuk of li sikrivu. But nonetheless, you're right that it is probably assur.
The real question is, is there an issur of yichud among non-gay men. Most (I haven't read much literature on the subject) just assume it's midas chassidus for all men to refrain from being misyached with other men. However, I did read one source that interestingly said it is assur to be strict in this regard because "מחזי כיוהרא".
Well then you agree that we should not just assume that there is an issur Yichud for gay men. this was my point. That we can not assume that this is an issur. It is possible that there needs to be more rabbinic literature on the topic to flesh out these things. I'm sure that there will also be a lot of machlokes about this.
Is it possible that when the anonymous students brought the issue of homosexuality into focus with anonymous articles in the Commentator, they did so without an agenda?
Can it be that they just needed to express their years of frustration to their fellow students? To give them an idea of what they go through, what "a day in their shoes" is like?
I think that's possible. But I must say that it seems now to have evolved into something else.
The large meetings, the 200-comment-debates. The quoting of pesukim and rishonim and gemaras.
I think this current wave of dialogue is an entirely different animal. It is not the same frustration, and it is not resigned. It seems like it looks for a purpose, it feels like it's rising and looking for some end. And I don't presume to know what that end is... perhaps nobody even does.
But this all feels much darker, angrier, and demanding.
This tone makes a lot of people uncomfortable and defensive, and I don't think it will accomplish much, other than to get people mad at each other and start shouting matches.
The "burning fire" article was not very "me-first." But, as some of the other anonymous posters crassly pointed out... some of the newer dialogue does take on that *appearance* in this new, personal, heated debate.
This is a brute-force approach... stir up trouble and see where it gets your cause. It just doesn't seem like it will work very well.
This is a very tough issue for many people to discuss, and it demands a highly calculated approach. Without that, I think it will just be tossed out.
Disclosure: Personally, I feel that the "best" thing homosexuals can reasonably aim for at this point is to make homophobic colleagues, peers, etc, aware [MISSION ACCOMPLISHED] of the existence of gays in the Orthodox community, and maybe decrease the amount of hurtful jokes made about them [MISSION PROBABLY NOT YET ACCOMPLISHED]. Anything more than that sounds like wishful thinking.
"Tolerance" sounds too much like "acceptance" and "condoning" and those are very scary words. Just trying to be realistic here.
I would agree to that? Not at all. When I get back to yeshiva (week or so), I can provide for you many sources explicitly forbidding yichud, as the gemara in kiddushin implies. Show me legitimate sources saying that homosexuals have no issur of yichud.
I think the only aggenda here is to stop the prejudice, ostracizing, silencing, and faulty assumptions with regard to the way Jews act to gay people in our Frum Community. The panelelist were asking their community to be introspective about the harm and suffering that they cause. The hallachic demands were that of a more stringent application of "bein adam Lechavero".
This Aggenda is something that most Jews could get behind.
EJB, Judaism doesnt work in a way that says "everything is assur, unless you have a source that says otherwise"
If you want to show that Yichud is assur for a gay man, (that a gay man violates the torah if he is in the same room alone with another man), then it is upon you to prove this, and show sources. So far, you have not.
I think the only aggenda here is to stop the prejudice, ostracizing, silencing, and faulty assumptions with regard to the way Jews act to gay people in our Frum Community. The panelelist were asking their community to be introspective about the harm and suffering that they cause. The hallachic demands were that of a more stringent application of "bein adam Lechavero".
This Aggenda is something that most Jews could get behind.
EJB, Judaism doesnt work in a way that says "everything is assur, unless you have a source that says otherwise"
If you want to show that Yichud is assur for a gay man, (that a gay man violates the torah if he is in the same room alone with another man), then it is upon you to prove this, and show sources. So far, you have not.
kl - I mentioned that many sources discuss the issue, and that I don't have enough time to sit down and research many specific sources prohibiting yichud among homosexuals. However, for starters, Shulchan Aruch EHE 24:1 (based on the gemara in kiddushin) strongly implies an issur yichud exists (and that is how the nosei keilim seem to read the shulchan aruch). In general, whenever we are concerned for mishkav zachar, an issur of yichud should apply. For commentators that directly discuss the issur, read:
עץ חיים הלכות נדה ושאר עריות פרק יב (end)
שו"ת שיח כהן אה"ע ד
@K-L
1) Okay. So you agree that there is an agenda.
2) Who can really say what "most Jews" will do? "3 Jews, 4 opinions..." It's surely a nice idea, for everyone to increase their observance of Bein Adam L'chaveiro, and I do hope we see it fulfilled. I agree with you there.
3) What I said, though, and what you didn't address in your response, is that the current dialogue *sounds* or *seems* or even *appears* like it has evolved from the "Burning Fire" article's "this is what it's like" attitude to one more along the lines of stirring up controversy to further the cause.
Don't get me wrong, I think the points you brought up, the ostracizing, the mean behavior, prejudice, are all terrible and should indeed be eradicated. I simply don't think that this approach is a correct one, or maybe that it's being implemented properly.
Again, the issue is a sensitive one. Conservative people who are very homophobic will not just change in the blink of an eye, nor do they seem to appreciate open forums of coming out and publicizing the reality of homosexuality. I think this seemingly confrontational approach will be met with too much resistance, because it is too transparent.
I think the "Burning Fire" article was a better way to do this. The message was delivered, carefully, in a controlled, safe environment. "Homosexuals exist in our community. They face many grueling challenges, and they would appreciate it if people didn't make it any harder than it had to be so that they aren't driven chas v'shalom to suicide, or giving up their passion for life, or going off the derech, or whatever the case may be."
Remember: when people feel shoved, they shove back. That can lead to another shove... or a punch in the face.
The open dialogue has brought out the worst in some people. I don't think it's the right way. Maybe you do. I guess we will see where it goes.
Kuch, you spell like Mordechai. Are you related?
Mordechai states that he isn't encouraging people to come out of the closet (until they are ready to, especially youth).
The case for compassion and understanding will be taken up when the OU and Agudah share conventions.
We need to hear what Rav Twersky says privately to individuals who are out and in pain. I don't think most people understand the all or nothing consequences of being out, how frum Jewish youth are allowed to drift down the drain.
Those who quote Halachik sources, ya, would temper their tongues if they knew they were turning shogegin into mezidin. But, they will argue, there are no atheists in a foxhole and no shogegin by arayot.
Bottom line: institutionally, the Orthodox community isn't ready to whitewash homosexuality. It goes against the family structure, Jewish continuity. A straight student argues elsewhere that gay DNA fits nature's balance by not often replicating. That's supposed to be a nechoma.
Meanwhile, Mordechai wins this round. The argument against homophobia is strong. So long as he doesn't militate for gay frum youth leaving mitzvos behind, his voice deserves to be heard
(singing "Wilkommen").
One last word: Mordechai and others base their argument for outing themselves based upon integrity. They posit that lying to their friends is immoral. They are pressured to date, do so half heartedly (like plenty of other singles who remain unhitched, the "crisis") and want to be open about being turned on by hot guys rather than faking joking about girls they aren't interested in. Women in dysfunctional marriages, married to homosexuals, would probably agree with them. The question has been raised before, who would want their daughter married to someone consumed with desire to cheat with other men? Does this argument justify public forums at Y.U., and comfortable acceptance of out frum gays in the Mazer Yeshiva program? The answer, frum gays say, is yes. They've always been there inside the closet, so mai nafka mina, out?
The yeshiva world calls such people resh'aim, whatever their age. Young and old, 14-30 and above were out in Sodom splashing in the Dead Sea.
Thanks everyone for the kind words in the end of this discussion. I think a lot has been gained in this kind of back and forth. We all can learn from each other, and I hope people will be inspired by this dialogue.
I hope I clarified that:
1. I or any panelist never referred to engaging in any sex act, and I do not think that a public discourse is a proper forum for discussing private sex acts.
2. These panels are about the intolerance and ostracizing that the frum community shows towards gay people in their community. Because the Community is the problem, their must be a communal response. The panel strengthened peoples compassion, helped our allies feel powerful in rejecting prejudice in their schools, communities and shuls, and started a long-overdue amazing Orthodox wide dialogue about this issue.
3. No one should ever be pressured to lie, or live a secret life
4. No one should be pressured to come out of the closet when they are not ready.
5. The Pesukim in the Torah, as well as the mesorah that is used to interpret them, can not be ignored, thrown out, or changed just because people have desires. No one at this panel espoused this, for this is outside the pale of orthodox thought.
6. Now there are many many Orthodox Rabbi's like Rabbi Schwartz from OZ, Rabbi Robinson from Lincoln Square, Rabbi Blau from YU, Rabbi Weiss from Riverdale, Rabbi Linzer from Chovevei Torah, Rabbi Freedman from Penn, Rabbi Lopatin from Chicago, Rabbi Rappaport from England, and Rav Medan from Isreal (gush), who have shown support for these panels, spoken out against the homophobia in the frum world, and are active in the compassion and respect that they publicly show homosexuals in their communities. We have made huge progress. Together we can eliminate needless suffering in the Frum Community.
This has been a true kiddush Hashem
Thank You :-)
EJB, I looked up each of those sources and none of them refer to an issur of Yichud for gay men. I find your last post very misleading.
If you find a source, that there is an issur for gay men to be alone in the same room with other men, then quote it. If you do not have such a source, just say so. And please do not assume that it is obvious.
Personally, I think more rabbinic thinking, analysis, and writing has to be done on this issue. But these rabbi's need to know the metzius first, and that entails them meeting and hearing from gay people
"If you could see her through my eyes."
Mordechai, mein kit kat.
You state:
"I do not think that a public discourse is a proper forum for discussing private sex acts."
Such statements, many believe, are inflammatory. This is what Maharat/not Chana and Rav Twersky are talking about. Are you innocent or guilty? Once you legitimate "private sex acts" you condone them. You do.
You imply that you permit them in the privacy of your bedroom, not just thoughts. The official Orthodox community (outside of Oz) isn't accepting.
{Incidentally, they don't necessarily approve of Chana's prose (virtuous Stern girls vs. guilty, horny semikhah students) either.}
You are the guru of jqy, Mordechai, a Talmud student, first father, sort of like their rosh yeshiva.
Surely you know "frum gays" who don't merely vote to uphold State privacy laws, but when faced with lapses act like R' Elozar ben Deradya and do teshuvah. What Jews do behind closed doors is G-d's business and we are His people. May His people be compassionate, wise and fair... and honest.
"Auf Wiedersehen... à bientôt".
Mordechai, Gluklich zu sehen,
Another bone to pick:
"4. No one should be pressured to come out of the closet when they are not ready."
You enjoy a good argument. What do you mean by this phrase, "when they are not ready?" Do you imply that if they ARE prepared, THEY SHOULD?
Thus, honesty as you define it is for you a higher value than the Jewish tradition's way which is to hide sin, to cover up and avoid sin, to strive for holiness rather than embrace gay identity, to be latent, rather than blatant. Am I wrong?
anon says:
"Once you legitimate "private sex acts" you condone them. You do."
um...I dont. I think you want me to...or need me too, so you could make a point. But just because you want to hear that I legitimate a private sex act, does not mean that i did, i do, or I would. I or any of the panelists never legitimated any private sex acts. We are discussing the community's response to gay people.
I never implied that i permit them in the privacy of ones bedroom. I implied that it is only appropriate to talk about private acts, in private. In this way, and on this point, i actually agree with Rav Twersky. The thing we disagree upon is whether the discussion of prejudice and communal ostracizing should only be done in private. Please "hold cup", in this conversation, because repeating ourselves, is just needless.
Finally, Honesty and Jewish tradition are not mutually exclusive. Honesty, Emes, is one of the essence of Jewish philosophy. Like the hebrew spelling of the word, it is the begining (aleph), middle (mem) and end (sof) of hashkafo. If one isnt being honest, one doesnt have a basis in which to approach hallacha.
If truth can be achieved and expressed it should. However, there are many issues that go along with coming out of the closet. Especially to parents and family. They can be very cruel, and judgmental. No kid should be pressured to come out of the closet under these circumstances. Each person is unique, and there is a time, a way and a place for everyone.
At the same time, a kid, should never be forced or pressured to lie about his orientation. This pressure exists, and it is up to our community to help with eliminating this pressure to lie. Besides promoting untruth...this harms our own kids, brothers and sons. They are suffering, and we can help.
ps, the fact anon says things like "i am the guru of JQYouth", only shows his ignorance about JQYouth. I am no such thing, JQY doesnt have things like guru's or leaders. He obviously doesnt know anything about JQY or worse yet, is lying about JQY to further his own arguments. This is insulting the over 400 kids who are part of the JQY community. Such assumptions are not helpful, and are part of the problem. Go online, look what JQY is, go to a meeting, join the mailing list...see what JQY is, before you slander this life-saving community.
"Meine Damen und Herren,
Mesdames et Messieurs
Fremde, etranger"
Gd forbid anyone should be slandered. JQY has no guru, all agree.
jqy, a lifesaver? could be.
If everyone was out, this would be Sodom, maybe.
I have never attended a jqy meeting, but for those who have never attended, information is, indeed, available online. For insight, check out
http://www.mygayhell.blogspot.com by a member who is very proud to have left Orthodoxy and is out, with veiled allusions to some of the panel participants, including the founding father of jqy.
All we need to know is on the internet, where the koach ha-tuma-ah is strong.
Break a leg. Save a life.
this mygayhell, is the experience of one person, who felt so harmed, ostrocized and and hurt by his orthodox family and community, that he felt he needed to leave.
It is a sad personal experience, and probably a lesson that if we were more compassionate, maybe we would have less gays leave frumkeit. This blog is his unique experience, and he is one, out of over 400 in JQY. So his experience...is just that, just his. Many in JQY are still shomer shabbos, kosher, some are in reparative therapy, some are celibate, others are not. Like all support groups, we dont judge, because we know the pressures and the unique experiences of each member. You cant judge one, until you stand in his shoes. This does not mean we ever legitimize any sexual action, or leaving of orthodoxy. We dont judge either way, as long as you dont hurt anyone.
Who wants to hurt anyone? Did the Nevi'im who brought unpleasant messages intend to do harm?
There are two sides to every question. You see and feel the vantage point of the out and proud. You identify with tikkun olam.
The Orthodox community has compassion for the dyslexic, paraplegics, children at risk. We always feel sorry for the underdog. But, when the dog barks, some run away. Others, travel in packs. We are judged by the pack we choose to run with. When being gay is more important to the person than being Jewish it's no longer Judaism.
I understand the plight of those who fear their families. But, before you wear compassion on your sleeve, think about those who decided two generations ago to leave Shabbos and kashrus behind, who intermarried, whose families sat shivah. You're saying they were wrong. They should have been more understanding, accepting. They were and what happened to Jewish continuity? The intermarriage rate skyrocketed.
Are out gay Jews better Jews because they are out?
Reste.
Bleibe
sagen
Nicht.
Repetitive argument is boring, as you say.
The world is not necessarily following our conversation ("im Caberet, au Caberet, to Caberet.")
Let's assume Rav Twersky will agree that calling people names is bad, that society's labeling others is negative, that being gay is kewl.
Let's also assume most suicide attempts have other factors contributing.
We should be more tolerant and make nice.
The problem is that the Rambam paskens a medinah ra'ah is one that is rov evil, and good if a majority are trying to be righteous. Rabbi Twersky assumes jqy adherents are politically active, if not sexually so. The latest issue of Newsweek features conservative arguments for gay marriage. When more than twenty five states of the Union accept gay marriage, the balance tips. Gay relationships, with or without yichud/chibah are forbidden to non Jews. If this is the gay agenda, and a goal of jqy, full acceptance, America is on the skids.
Speaking for those who don't yet have tickets to the Kit Kat Klub, is giving an inch too much?
SORRY FOR COMing in late...
I understand the conflicting views here. Based on the Gay pple here it is apparent that these ORTHODOX GAY PEOPLE just dont get what SEX is! This is not their fault maybe it comes from there naivety of being "FRUM"! sorry about the asterisk. They think they can throw around all these words and theories without it referring to anything but CUDDLING!!
huh?
Anon, your problem is that you associate being honest to your parents about "being gay", with telling your parents that you break the shabbos. This Analogy is obviously wrong. "Being Gay", is not breaking any hallacha.
We ask for compassion, for those who "are gay", one doesnt need to be sexually active to be gay. The same way that one doesnt have to be sexually active to 'being straight'. We ask for compassion for the person, not the action. We ask to stop prejudice and ostrocizing of gay people. Not gay sex. No one in the panel even mentioned gay sex.
As Rabbi Allen Schwartz, Rabbi of OZ, and Rosh Yeshiva in YU, (who actually went to the YU panel) corroborated last Friday night, in his speech to his Shul, in front of almost 1000 people:
These are Rabbi Schwartz words from his pulpit speech...
" No one that evening spoke of
behavior. The program began with a clear and unequivocal statement that the Torah’s
commandments guide the Jewish people and nothing can change that."
I feel very vindicated :-)
PARSHAS SHEMOT
RABBI ALLEN SCHWARTZ
January 9, 2010
"He went out amongst his brothers and perceived their travails." So did Moshe experience
for the first time the suffering of his enslaved people. The commentaries discuss whether
Moshe, at the time of this insight, knew that he was of the same people as the slaves (see
Rashi and Ibn Ezra). One way or another, Moshe was incensed at what everyone else
took for granted, namely, that Hebrews are to be publicly beaten into submission. Not
only is this a common sight, there is not a single heroic Hebrew (Ha Ketav V’Hakabola)
nor a single moral Egyptian (Netziv) who would stand up for him. Moshe looks this way
and that way and finds no help. Regardless of which one Moshe is at the time, a heroic
Hebrew or moral Egyptian, he puts his own life on the line to save an unknown
anonymous Hebrew.
Recently Yeshiva University hosted a program where four former or current students
described their experiences of balancing observant Judaism with a homosexual
orientation. Much has been written and said since, either congratulating the heroic stance
of the participants or condemning the public display of behavior that violates the Torah.
It is a word in this last sentence that I wish to expound. No one that evening spoke of
behavior. The program began with a clear and unequivocal statement that the Torah’s
commandments guide the Jewish people and nothing can change that. The program did
place a great challenge before us though. One who grapples with an Orthodox
upbringing and a homosexual tendency wants more than anything to simply speak to a
sympathetic ear. This person is not looking for acceptance or to vent frustration.
Orthodox Jews must balance a host of tendencies, enticements, urges and proclivities
with Torah observance. Every single individual’s struggle is unique, based on singular
characteristics and experiences. Some of these struggles pertain to proper use of our
money and resources, some to proper use of our speech and for some, what feels like a
natural tendency that violates Vayikra18:23. At first they may try to fight this tendency.
Yom Kippur after Yom Kippur they plead with Hashem for help in overcoming this urge.
They may hear on Parshas Vayera or Parshas Kedoshim how evil it is, how unnatural and
cursed it is and they become more and more confused. Some contemplate suicide
because they look this way and that way and find no one is listening and there is no one
to talk to.
continued...
Continued...
Regardless of how one may feel about the YU program, one thing is clear
though, and that is that more people are talking. I recently spoke to an Orthodox Jewish
gay man who knows scores of formerly Orthodox Jews who have left the fold because
there was no one to talk to about these tendencies, and all they heard was how evil they
must be and how they will cause the fall of society and bring us back to Sodom if they
had their way. He told me if these people had an open discussion with a caring ear, they
would be observant today. It is interesting to note that when the Prophet Yechezkel
refers to the evils of the society of Sodom, he mentions nothing of sexual practices.
When the Aggada at the end of Masechet Sanhedren concentrates on the abominations of
Sodom, it refers mostly to egregious violations of justice, without a reference to sexual
practice. The antidote to Sodom is not to condemn any particular sexual practice. We’ll
leave that to Vayikra 18 and 20. The antidote to Sodom is to be caring to all people and
bring them under the tent of Avraham Avinu.
One would be hard pressed to find a Torah verse that prohibits a tendency toward any
particular orientation. What the Torah prohibits is a particular act and nothing in the YU
program disagreed. So much for the content of the event. Sexual tendency is a private
thing and one may argue that a public display of such constitutes a breach in humility and
tznius. Once again I stress though that no matter what we feel about this debate one thing
is clear. The travails of the unknown and anonymous people who have suffered and
grappled with this issue will elicit a more sympathetic reaction from those who listen and
it is important that more of us listen.
Mordechai is vindicated. Congratulations. Now you can rest.
Thirty off the derech, no longer frum gays staying within Orthodoxy because of a missing listening ear sounds off to me. Not everyone who deviates gets thrown out of their house (some do, other problems being present). Plenty of shuls tolerate older singles suspected/ignored, so what if he's gay. The problem is when it's brought in our face by people who are off the derech themselves.
You know yire shamayim who merely want to cuddle, who are looking for love. For everyone who justifies sadomasochism because tendencies are not forbidden, where in authentic Jewish literature are homosexual tendencies validated and rewarded? The world has not changed; desire is universal.
What is changing is the political landscape, the opening of the closet, activism for gay marriage. What is your opinion on gay marriage, Mordechai? What does Jerry Lewis say?
Everyone is deserving of sympathy and compassion, the Jewish family, our Creator, too.
This last comment is just sick, it actually makes the panel seem even more needed, and the panelists even more heroic. There is no place for these silly personal attacks, grow up.
You skirt the issue, Mordechai. No response to the central question, just a hue and cry against the silly.
Forward, the forum. Then, one can hope to read one's name in the Weddings and Celebrations section of the New York Times, "they met at jqy."
I do not see what a secular civil marriage right in the US, has to do with this issue. Even if Gay marriage is absolutely forbidden and absurd in Torah law, why would we enforce Torah law on secular american society. Again, eating shellfish is called an abomination...should we want the US to outlaw all shrimp?
Organ donation is "yehareg v'all yaavor" according to many rabbeim...do we want the US to outlaw all organ donation?
We dont want the constitution follow Hallacha?
US rights are about equality, democracy, and protection...NOT what it says in the bible that Jews and christians believe in.
I dont think the govt should legislate Jewish or religious law. And if you do, that scares me, you should be consistent to all religious laws.
Maybe the Govt should legislate borer on shabbos too.
Finally, the Emcee responds.
"I do not see what a secular civil marriage right in the US, has to do with this issue."
Rav Twersky intimated that this issue is germane to Orthodox, formerly frum individuals coming out as gay. Traditionalists view gay activism as a threat. Civil libertarians speak about rights; the Torah true are within their rites.
Mordechai states: "why would we enforce Torah law on secular american society." Ask yourself this: if our Rabbanim were imams, why not? If dina d'malchusa creates a medinah tovah, why not? They are bound to sheva mitsvot b'nei Noach, not the Bill of Rights.
Granted, it's a matter of perspective. I'm no expert in gender. I'm not a woman. But, I am a Jew who knows that homophobia is also illogical and not a virtue. Hating shellfish is illogical.
However sensitive the rabbinic establishment may be to gay individuals, a line has been drawn in the sand. Anyone advancing gay marriage is out, truly.
While birth control, is still biah, however, just resulting in a non pregnancy.
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