Rabbi Kenneth Auman once clearly delineated the difference between rights and obligations in the conception of Judaism and the halakha. I think a similar distinction ought to be made here.
God owes us nothing. We owe God everything. If not for Him, we would not exist. We would not live, breathe, feel or think. The only being in the world to whom we can and must pledge ourselves wholly is God. Everyone else may fall away.
Thus, there is no such thing as our deserving anything within a Judaic conception of the world. Were we to spend all of our lives occupied in nothing but the total service of God, we would still be unable to repay Him for the goodness He has bestowed upon us. For people who have good parents, you know this feeling as well. I could pay my parents back all the money they spent on me and it would still not suffice. There is no way to ever repay. I can only live in their debt and express my gratitude in any way I can.
If you look at the advertisements in magazines like InStyle, Glamour, Cosmopolitan, W, Redbook, Vogue and Lucky, you will note a common theme. The advertisements continually end with the words, "Because you're worth it." Or alternatively, "You deserve it." America is a country which desires to make you believe that you should spend money to satisfy all your desires and needs because you are worth it. And on the surface, that seems to be a very satisfying philosophy. There shall be no people with low self-esteem in America; we have magically whisked them away. In their place, we shall have people who always believe that they are 'worth it.'
I look at these advertisements and laugh at them. Firstly, because I find it demeaning to be told that I am supposedly worth a very expensive bottle of Olay lotion. I am a human being created in the image of God; I am worth far more than that. Secondly, because I don't believe in the conception that we deserve anything. We deserve nothing. What God gives to us is a gift.
This is something that the Rav, Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik, understands entirely. This is why he developed a philosophy of sacrifice. Everything balances in the Rav's philosophy of dignity in defeat. We are permitted to eat kosher but not non-kosher. To engage in relations with our spouse but not with others. We must abstain from having relations when our wives are niddot. We can work during the week but not on Shabbat. Everything is a balance. And this philosophy, according to the Rav, helps train us so that we can accept dignity in defeat even when that defeat is not of our own making. For example, when it is the halakha that binds us and nothing else.
As he writes:
- Dignity in Defeat
If man knows how to take defeat at his own hands in a variety of ways as the Halakhah tries to teach us, then he may preserve his dignity even when defeat was not summoned by him, when he faces adversity and disaster and is dislodged from his castles and fortresses.
What is the leitmotif of the strange drama that was enacted by Abraham on the top of a mountain when, responding to a paradoxical Divine summons to take his son, his only son, whom he loved, and offer him in a distant land called Moriah, he surrendered his son to God (Gen. 22)? It was more than a test of loyalty that Abraham had to pass. God, the Omniscient, knew Abraham's heart. It was rather an exercise in the performing of the dialectical movement, in the art of reversing one's course and withdrawing from something which gave meaning and worth to Abraham's life and work, something which Abraham yearned and prayed for on the lonely days and dreary nights while he kept vigil and waited for the paradoxical, impossible to happen. And when the miraculous event occurred and Abraham emerged as a conqueror, triumphed over nature itself, the command came through: Surrender Isaac to Me, give him up, withdraw from your new position of victory and strength to your old humble tent, all enveloped in despair and anxiety, loneliness and gloom. Abraham, take defeat at your own hands, give up heroically what you acquired heroically; be a hero in defeat as you were in victory.
Abraham obeyed. He realized that through this dialectical movement a man attains redemption and self-elevation. And the improbable happened; as soon as he reconciled, as soon as he gave Isaac up, the forward movement, the march to victory was resumed again. He received Isaac from the angel and the pendulum began to swing to the pole of conquest.
This drama is reenacted continually by the man of Halakhah, who is dignified in victory and defeat. The Halakhah taught man not contemptus saeculi, but catharsis saeculi.
Halakhah wants man to be conqueror and also to be defeated- not defeated by somebody else, not defeated by a friend, not defeated by an outside power, for there is no heroism involved in such a defeat; such a defeat, on the contrary, demonstrates cowardice and weakness. Halakhah wants man to be defeated by himself, to take defeat at his own hands and then reverse the course and start surging forward again and again. This directional movement, like a perennial pendulum, swinging back and forth, gives exhaustive expression to man's life and to Halakhah. [Emph mine.]
Is this important for mental health? I believe so. Of course I cannot spell out here how this doctrine could be developed into a technology of mental health, but I believe this doctrine contains the potential out of which a great discipline of the Judaic philosophy of suffering, an ethic of suffering, and a technology of mental health might emerge.
What I have developed is more a philosophy of the Halakhah. How this philosophy could be interpreted in terms of mental health is a separate problem, one that is quite complicated. But I believe that the trouble with modern man and his problems is what the existentialists keep on emphasizing: anxiety, angst. Man is attuned to success. Modern man is a conqueror, but he does not want to see himself defeated. this is the main trouble. Of course, when he encounters evil and the latter triumphs over him and he is defeated, he cannot 'take it'; he does not understand it.
However, if man is trained gradually, day by day, to take defeat at his own hands in small matters, in his daily routine, in his habits of eating, in his sex life, in his public life- as a matter of fact, I have developed how this directional movement is applicable to all levels- then, I believe, when faced with evil and adversity and when he finds himself in crisis, he will manage to bear his problem with dignity.
-Out of the Whirlwind by Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik, pages 113-115
I consider myself a compassionate person. The fact that my heart went out to those bound by the halakha when it comes to the LGBT movement particularly was a demonstration of this, I believed. Then I met Jordan and he, as usual, proved me wrong. Jordan was in fact more compassionate than me! "What of someone who is a kleptomaniac?" he asked me. "He has an urge, perhaps even an illness that makes him want to steal. Do you feel compassion for him?" I shook my head no. "What you have done is made a mental judgement that one kind of suffering is worse than another," he rebuked me. "Who is to judge the strength of desire? Who is to say that one desire trumps another? The same desire that a man may feel to love and cling to and totally mold himself with another man may express itself in the man who wants to steal. How can you know the strength and power of desire to decide that some are reasonable and some are not?"
"But," I argued, "the difference is that this has to do with living one's entire life. To live your entire life alone? Celibate, without anyone to share it with in that way? It seems cruel. Also, consensual homosexuality hurts no one whereas murdering or thieving takes someone or something away from someone else."
"Then tell me," he says, "what if someone has an impossibly powerful desire to eat treif? Do we say it is not a sin? Do we form a support group for those who eat treif, decide to have a Mechalelei Shabbos club in shul for those overpowered by that desire? The strength of one's desire proves nothing. Unlike you, I feel for everyone who suffers desire like that. The woman who has not been given a get and is an agunah; suppose she gets remarried without her get. Do I feel for her? Of course I do. Would I start a support group in shul for women who remarry without gittin? We cannot do so."
And he was right. I had decided, simply based on my own personal feeling, that the desire an LGBT person feels for someone else was more important and thus more heart-wrenching. I felt compassion for them when I would not feel that way towards others who broke the law. I had bought into the Western judgment which believes that we all deserve to be happy - or at least to engage in the 'pursuit of happiness' and also deserve to fulfill all desires so long as they don't harm others. But this is not the truth. We deserve nothing of God. Should He bless us, if we are lucky enough to live beautiful, fulfilled lives, we shall be the luckiest people in all the world. But if we do not receive these blessings, can we really accuse Him, tell Him that we deserve that perfect life, that we are somehow entitled to it; it's coming our way? I don't think so.
The reason I went to the event entitled 'Being Gay in the Orthodox World' is because I don't believe in going beyond the law. The law says a man who sleeps with another man like he would lie with a woman is committing a grave sin. It does not say that we must refer to that man as a 'faggot' or act cruelly to him. Most yeshivot, and YU is no exception, are homophobic. I went to the event because I thought it was important that people see that people who are homosexual are just like you and me. They are our classmates and our peers. And thus people would learn not to be needlessly cruel, to go beyond the law in their cruelty with words and actions.
I love people who happen to be attracted to members of the same sex. I find much to love in them. Some of my best friends are gay. But I cannot condone, countenance or believe in 'giving up' parties where people want me or anyone Orthodox to be okay with the fact that they are breaking the law (assuming they are acting upon their desires.) I will never be okay with that. And that means I may make decisions you will not like. When my child asks me about the kid who has two daddies, I may explain that according to Judaism it is forbidden, that s/he can love and appreciate the people and nonetheless know this is not in accordance to the law. I love many people who break Judaic law. The distinction here is that you absolutely know that this is not what God desires and you have made a decision to put yourself first, not to struggle any longer, not to strive to sacrifice even though it would be immensely painful to you, simply because you 'deserve to be loved.'
My heart goes out to all who struggle. But if the struggle is over, if you are 20 years old and have made a rational decision to break the halakha, that saddens me. I think you are too young to give up the fight just yet. You cannot tell me it is impossible to live a celibate life. I know women in their 60s who are virgins and will never touch a man for as long as they live. It is not because they don't want to. It is because they fear God. Is it awful, miserable, unhappy and lonely not to fulfill your love for another? Absolutely it is. But it is not impossible. And to me, the rationalization that you deserve to act on your feelings contra God because they will make you happy will not stand up.
This does not mean I would shun you or hate you or otherwise not love you as a person. But I will believe that you are doing wrong, that this is a sin, and you cannot expect my support of this sin. I love you. I don't believe in calling you names. I believe it is important for people to realize that you are human and struggling and to empathize with you. But we have been created by God, given the incalculable gift of life, and it is our job to attempt to repay through sacrifice. Even if we hate it. Even if we are angry with God. Even if we feel that He is cruel. And I cannot support anyone who has decided the struggle is over and the decision is made. I do not believe that is what Judaism is about. There is no point at which we simply give up. We are living for God and for this reason we must struggle to do as He wills.
The woman for whom I am named was murdered because she was a Jew. If she can die for being a Jew, must I not struggle with all I have, with all I am, to live as a Jew? To hate the times that I fail to serve God as He wishes? To try my utmost to do so, even when He hurts me, even when I am angry with Him, even when all I want is to run from Him? If I must give up my life for Him, must die for Him, then can I not give up my dreams for Him, my would-be spouse, my unfulfilled love?
We have raised a generation that does not understand why they must die for God, and thus it follows that they find it extremely difficult to live for Him. As a member of this generation, I feel with you, alongside you. I know how it hurts to live for God. I know the pain and the anger and the hatred, how you feel raw inside, the words unexpressed, the silent scream you wish He could hear. I know that anger because I live with it. But what I cannot do, what I cannot accept, what I will never accept, is that it is a legitimate choice to decide not to live for God. You may feel it to be a necessity, the only way you will stay sane, the only way to survive and I cannot judge you for that. But the point of view that states that it is legitimate to make such a decision-that I should see it as normal and think nothing of it, that it is acceptable to decide that you will not live for God- that I cannot accept. And if you wish to tell me such a point of view is legitimate, I will fight you with everything that I have. Because Jordan would take a bullet in his head for his Judaism and for God, and after knowing such a person, I cannot accept that we ought to be satisfied with anything less.
303 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 303 of 303SM,
You sound well read on subjects I've never even heard of. I googled some of the terminology and found that you were referring to terms of law and philosophy.
I found it difficult to immediately understand your point - but I think I have.
And I think in plainer words - you were saying- and please correct me if I'm wrong - that the core issue that orthodox jewry faces is the lack of direction, cohesion of authority, poor sense of identity and the fragmented understanding by many, of understanding Torah law.
The gay issue that we were addressing, discussing and arguing on this blog - was merely a symptom - amongst other symptoms - that surface because of the core issues.
?
Almost all the comments so far have assumed that God exists, that God revealed/inspired/dictated the Torah, that God endowed the rabbis with authority to interpret and enforce the Torah. Necessary those these be to the memeplex we call Orthodox ideology, there still remains the problem that no evidence exists to prove any of these assertions and the further down the list we go the less likely each proposition becomes. The Israelites in the Torah at least allegedly had signs and wonders, people being incinerated or striken with plague or swallowed up by the earth to validate the claims being made to them. However, unless one can first prove that God even exists, arguing about who deserves what and who can do what with whom sexually without offending some fictional magic man in the sky is pretty much absurd.
Anonymous 6:52:
First of all, this is a blog for Jews, in case you forgot the title. Nobody's forcing you to read it, and nobody cares about your opinions regarding the existence of G-d.
Second, the issue in question is (roughly) the status of homosexual individuals within the Orthodox Jewish community, obviously making Orthodox Jewry the starting point. What exactly are you trying to accomplish? Do you really think you're going to proselytize anybody to atheism with your comment?
AN intelligent presentation of the issues involved can be found here:http://www.avakesh.com/2009/12/gay-jews.html
It is not necessarily proselytism to point out absurdity.
The theme of this particular post is that humans deseve nothing from God and that God deserves everything from us. Btw, we're talking about Gid here. There may or may not be a God, but there is definitely no such thing as a "G-d." "God" is not one of the 7 sacred uneffaceable Divine Names.
If God exists and if God revealed the Torah and if God has authorized the rulings of the Rabbis in regard to gay sex, then the author may have a point. However, if any of those propositions is not true, then that point evaporates. The author- and in fact no one else- can demonstrate the truth and veracity of his or her claims. That means, then, that one cannot with any intellectual honesty make judgments about anyone else's sexual choices.
If one personally believes that gay sex is sinful, then one can avoid gay sex and one can legitimately say "I believe gay sex is wrong." Unless one can prove that God exists and validates one's opinions, then one cannot make objective absolute statements about the rightness or wrongness of given acts.
@ShanaMaidel
"...saying Judaism is xyz makes absolutely no sense..."
True, but saying it isn't abc does make sense. In your head, what's 13546549 times 127347697 times 9456899845 times 2? Not an odd number, that much I know!
Judaism does not make so few claims as to be useless, as you implied. Rather, it makes enough to be false.
I know before whom I stand: no one serious enough to have their name capitalized.
The concept of deserving something is not one limited to gay frum jews. In fact, and I say this not in a judgmental fashion but a realistic one, how many young Jewish women (specifically those that frequent the Stern and seminary crowd) voice similar ideals in their search for a shidduch? Lecture first to the young women who return to their dorm rooms after a night or a break up and cry over how much they deserve to find their Chosson before you turn this idea onto the gay frum jew.
“When my child asks me about the kid who has two daddies, I may explain that according to Judaism it is forbidden”
You formulate this statement based on the assumption that the homosexual couple is acting on the forbidden aspects of their desires. However, what if said couple was not engaging in the forbidden act, i.e. anal sex, but rather living together, loving one another and raising a family together all while not transgressing Hashems commandment? How then would you explain the situation? Is it still one that is forbidden in the eyes of Halacha?
“I know women in their 60s…” Who are we to judge and compare the struggle of some to the struggles of others?
“I know the pain and the anger and the hatred, how you feel raw inside, the words unexpressed, the silent scream you wish He could hear. I know that anger because I live with it…” I’m sorry, but being one who has trained others on the struggles faced by LGBT individuals (specifically frum ones) this statement is both rude and demeaning. How do you dare say that you can understand out struggle? No one can. Each struggle is individual. While you may sympathize with us and while you may be our ally and friend, you will never know our pain.
I think the point Levovitz made that being gay or straight is not about sex is really the whole underlying issue here. If being gay meant gay sex then there would be no discussion and no room for a panel (even in YU!). the whole issue is that being gay is just a....personality trait or maybe a just a natural human inclination.
However, if that was it, then whats the big deal. some guys are pulled towards girls they are attracted to, and some guys have the same feeling when they see another guy, they feel that tug and that draw etc....
So in a utopian world the guy gets the girl and the guy gets the guy, everybody does whats natural to them.
However, here's the problem: all of a sudden there's this law that prohibits a guy who's attraction to men is just as human and just as natural as his friends attraction to women, and yet he cannot do anything about it. Forget the fairness is sure, if there were only gay people in the world it would still be a horrible existence.
So now, these people want to remain frum and yet that means giving up what's natural to them, and not like giving up pork or something, its giving up your life, they know that they wont have a family a wife a partner a best friend, they will be old lonely people who at the age of 60 will be god knows where living in some empty apt going from house to house or maybe having to eat alone every shabbos. Their acceptance of themselves and their religion puts them into this situation. A sad and depressive situation and so that is where support groups come in. This isnt about giving them the go ahead to be active. its not support to be a sinner, it is support to be a religious jew while being in a situation in which you cannot live like other religious jews.
Anon 8:29:
You fail to address my point, namely that you ARE trying to proselytize people on a RELIGIOUS JEWISH blog to not believe in G-d. It's all very well and good that you don't believe in G-d, but save your rhetoric for a relevant forum. The starting point in this forum is that G-d does exist, G-d did reveal the Torah, and G-d Himself prohibits gay sex. After that is where the author's point begins, and that is why you are not relevant here. Chana, along with everyone else here, is dealing with those who want to be viewed as RELIGIOUS JEWS, and therefore are starting with these same basic tenets as well.
G-d, you're out of place.
One would assume that a man and woman living together with love and raising a child are consumating that relationship. Why would I assume that two men attracted to one another and doing the same things are not?
Anonymous 10:07 PM:
the same way that the you can assume that a man and woman living together dont sleep together while she is a niddah.
I am as orthodox as you are. How dare you question my orthodoxy simply because I have serious questions about the nature of God. Given the life I have been dealt, I think a healthy questioning of God is completely in order. A whole literature has grown up on this theme after the Shoah. If I were not orthodox, why on earth would I waste my time trying to communicate with you? Vayikrah cryptically proscribes an act, but it seems that it also has the effect of generating prejudice against people with a sexuality different from the norms. I really don't believe that most of you truly appreciate the nature of homosexual attraction. It is identical to heterosexual attraction. It has all the same physiologic and Psychologic effects. And the rigid enforcement of the opposite sexuality by society has the same effect as well. If you can imagine being told that you are only allowed to love another man and that the beautiful, lovely, intelligent women at work is forbidden, then you might understand where I come from. The Nissayon is not the refraining from gay sex. The nissayon is maintaining any desire whatsoever to serve Hashem and to live in a community which looks down on me. You look down on me even if I am single and not in a gay relationship -though you claim to have pity.
This forum has simply turned into an outlet for intolerant people to claim the moral high ground over the rest of us.
Yes Dina, you are lording over us from where you sit. Your judgments taste bitter and they stimulate bad feelings. It really appears to me that the frum world is really not a place for me any more. I certainly would not want to corrupt all of your delicate and pure values. I will be happier elsewhere. I know that if all of us gays felt this way, your lives would be easier, since you wouldn't have to face us anymore.
I am not sure who I am trying to please anyhow. When we meet again in the next world (until 120 years for everybody) we will see who were the better people. I suspect that the acceptance of my own self as created by Hashem will garner far less anger from Him than the thinly veiled Sinat Hinam displayed in theses posts.
Anonymous- I guess I will never be coming to you house for Shabbat lunch - that much is clear.
I think Anonymous 6:52's comment is in poor taste. However, I think it speaks to an issue that really is fundamental to this question. Many of you are talking about how Judaism consists of absolute truths, how our absolute responsibility to God trumps the ephemeral and sensual. Where does this obligation to follow God's laws come from? Are we bound to God's laws merely because he created us? That wasn't something I agreed to! And, whether you believe in God or not, it's very difficult to argue that the existence of God or the correctness of Judaism is in any way self-evident. Almost none of us believes in God because we have arrived at the conclusion that He exists objectively; most of us believe in God because we were raised in religious homes or became involved in the religious community, we follow His laws "for they are our lives and the length of our days", the Torah and its commandments are "your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples, that, when they hear all these statutes, shall say: 'Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.'" Judaism is a religion built around laws much more than it is a religion built around faith.
Most of us can't imagine life without these laws. Shabbos, kashrut, learning Torah are an integral part of our existence; they are a solid foundation for our lives, the glue that keeps our community together. Judaism is not a religion where you keep the laws because you believe in God; it is a religion where you believe in God because His laws are good and just.
For someone who is gay, God's laws no longer make sense. The frum homosexual is condemned to a life without love and companionship, without a family, with a connection to the Jewish community that becomes more and more tenuous. He is forced to examine the foundations of his belief, because it is now increasingly costly in terms of tears and anguish to maintain. The irrationality of faith is exposed to him as a self-destructive obsession. Unlike those martyrs who die for their religion, who die with a sense of purpose and resolve, he is a living martyr, condemned to lie to his family and friends day after day, condemned to a terrible longevity punctuated by loneliness and depression, watching his friends marry and have families, lost at sea without an anchor, distracting himself through work and the minutia of life, waiting to die.
I don't know how accurate a depiction this is of people's actual experiences; it is certainly an accurate depiction of the view from twenty years old. This individual has a couple of options open. He can decide that the passionate faith he had is untenable, and give up on faith in order to live a fulfilling life. He can decide that his tradition and his faith are non-negotiable, and with iron resolution drain the dregs of the poisonous cup. Or, unwilling to let go of the meaning and fulfillment that he gets from his Jewish faith, but also unwilling or unable to be a martyr, he lives a life of contradiction. The fourth possibility is that he will change; it is a well-documented fact that this is usually impossible.
Let's talk about option 3. The contradiction that is an Orthodox homosexual is, like all faith, ultimately paradoxical. To decide to be openly gay and sexually active is to recognize one's own limitations; not everybody is capable of life as a martyr, or even of hiding their failings from their friends and family their whole life. It is easy to call this "giving up". It is easy to imagine that if only one has sufficient fortitude of will, one can persevere. It is easy to imagine that this trial would not bereave one of one's faith. To those of you who are merely imagining this, you have no idea.
A person decides that for him, life is impossible without a loving (and yes, physical) relationship with a person of the same gender. But perhaps he does not try to blame God for his falling. Perhaps he wants to preserve his religion as far as possible and serve God in the ways in which he is humanly capable. In reality, we all live in this paradox, for there is not a righteous man in the land who will do good and not sin. Is there really such a big difference between the person who confines himself, as far as we know, to activities which are punishable by lashes and a person who cannot put in the time and effort to check his vegetables for insects, yet perseveres in his faith? We all realize that we cannot be perfect, that there are trials we will not succeed in, and we must remember that Judaism is not an all-or-nothing religion. In Judaism it is better to keep 612 commandments than to keep none at all. We try to do the best we can, and we know that ultimately we will be all be judged before the Almighty.
It is easy to see that both the second and third person are in a very fragile state. It is much easier for both of these people to decide that the laws of God are neither good nor just, that there is no Law and no Judge. In doing so they have company in a long tradition of philosophers and common people who have forsaken their religion and found meaning elsewhere in life. Who knows if our first person is right, if the struggles of the second two people were all for nothing? It is like the trial of Abraham, when God tells him to sacrifice his son. How does Abraham know that this is God, and not a delusion? How can it be possible that a just God would order the death of an innocent child? How can one weigh the terrible possibility that the sacrifice is for nothing? Can we really comprehend being in Abraham's place? Which of us will confidently say that he would not begin to doubt, would not completely lose his faith?
As Jews we are forbidden to put a stumbling block before the blind; the Rabbis interpreted this to include leading people to sin. From a pragmatic point of view, it becomes necessary to weigh two possiblities: that a hostile attitude toward gays will prevent them from committing sinful acts; and that a hostile attitude toward gays will cause them to completely lose their faith and commitment to Judaism. In the first case we are worried that by being compassionate to the fallen, we will cause the strong to fall as well. Perhaps. I believe the martyr stays his course because of his love for God, not because he has decided that the alternative is less pleasant. In the second case we are worried that by being hostile towards the weak (I should say, we are all weak, nobody knows how strong he is until the day he dies), we will cause them to fall further. We have seen that the third type of person is swayed by the reality of his situation; he has already determined that it is impossible for him to live a closeted life, notwithstanding his faith in God. If we make it impossible for him to be a part of Orthodox life, he will see that there is really no road open to him but the third. Is this halachically acceptable? For the gay individual, the third solution represents no longer giving up; it is an assertion of independence - a cry of freedom. For us it represents a stain on our conscience, that we have caused a Jew to become estranged from his Creator and leave Torah and Mitzvot.
We worry about the sanctity of our community; but there are other types of sanctity besides the ritual kind. We must not let ourselves become cruel and callous. Perhaps we might have stoned the homosexual when we had a Sanhedrin; this punishment is not really so cruel - many in this situation have thought of taking their own lives. What is truly cruel is for the suffering individual to be cut off from the community. What is truly cruel is to harden our hearts for the sake of the law and by doing so destroy its observance.
You know, it is not impossible to live a life where you give up sex for God. There are 400,000 Catholic priests in the world (and this doesn't count the monks and nuns who also remain celibate).
I think what is different is that in the Catholic Church their sacrifice is appreciated and elevated as an ideal. Maybe the solution for Orthodox Jews should be to create a special status for people that want to remain celibate for God. This would actually cover not just homosexuals, but could anyone who wants to belong to this group...
That way you kill two birds with one stone. You turn this group of people from being on the bottom rungs of Orthodox society to the top, and at the same time they remain within the bounds of halacha...
Beautifully, beautifully said. You articulated just what I was feeling in a way that was a pleasure to read. Thank you so much for posting your transcript, and thank you for writing what I suspect a lot of us are feeling, but don't have the words to say.
You should keep in mind that a lot of Catholic priests are not, in fact, celibate. And I'm not claiming that it's impossible to be celibate; what I am saying is that it is impossible for some people. It is true that one of the problems with the Jewish approach is that marriage and procreation are ideal (and not second-best, as in Catholicism), but given that this is the state of affairs and that there is little room in the community for people who choose to be celibate I that these people are our responsibility. In any case, being celibate is not even permissible in Judaism (although I have no patience for anybody who prescribes marriage for homosexuals) and in general does not jive with traditional Jewish values.
Whatever happened to the idea that one does not presume a fellow Jew to be a sinner? According to the prevalent interpretation, the Torah prohibits anal intercourse between men. Fine. It's a chok just like pork or meat and dairy. Do we presume that a Jew who goes to a grocery store is going to buy and consume bacon? If we see him buy both beef and cheese do we assume he us going to make himself a cheeseburger? I do not, but then again I try to follow the commandment to judge my neighbor favorably. So, if two men are in a relationship, why should one assume they are having anal intercourse? It is not the only nor is it the most common and popular form of sexual expression between men.
And what of lesbians, whose relations violate no d'oraita prohibitions?
Too many people are making the assumption that gay = anal sex, and there is no basis for that leap besides the individual's own personal biases and prurient interests.
If one believes that God has prohibited anal sex between men, then another person's sex life only becomes an issue if he openly admits to engaging in anal sex. If that is not the case, I should think we would be obligated to assume that a fellow Jew is not deviating from whatever conception of the Torah we may believe in.
In response to one of the anonymous statements, if two men are living together and presenting themselves as frum, then I think it is safe to assume that they are participating in forbidden activities.
Alex,
You really take umbrance far too quickly - and I'm commenting regarding my comments exclusively. I don't feel I want to argue for my 'dignity' or to save face- but you're truly not getting me at all.
It might help for you to realize that as far as I know, I've never met a Jewish gay guy, and listening to the panelists was the first time I ever heard the gay side of the story.
It's not a subject I'm incredibly familiar with besides for perhaps - will and grace, and my gay make-up artist (non jewish) with whom I enjoy speaking to alot, when we're together.
That's about it really.
Oh - and I've watched that movie - Brokeback mountain, and I remember the intensity of emotion portrayed there.
So - given that that is the extent of my knowledge of the gay world, and given that I was brought up orthodox and until Chana posted her two most recent posts, I never thought into the gay situation very much - I really think you jump way too quickly when I don't seem to 'understand' your situation, or when I have questions or thoughts of my own.
I'm not saying I'll ever 'come round' to your point of view, given time to reflect, but I can certainly say you get bitter and angry so quickly, that I'm surprised when you're 'hurt' when others seem - to you - not to live up to your expectations of sympathy. You, in anger, make this difficult.
>You should keep in mind that a lot of Catholic priests are not, in fact, celibate.
That's not the point - there are plenty of "Orthodox" jews that don't go to the mikvah, or will flip on a switch on Shabbos...
>And I'm not claiming that it's impossible to be celibate; what I am saying is that it is impossible for some people.
Well, no solution will be 100 percent perfect.
>>In any case, being celibate is not even permissible in Judaism (although I have no patience for anybody who prescribes marriage for homosexuals) and in general does not jive with traditional Jewish values.
OK, my point is that given the choice between having gay sex and not procreating, I'd think that Orthodox gays can choose not procreating, if they can do it in a way which is celebrated as a sacrifice for God vs being a second class citizen.
Alex:
It's understandable that you gave up, because you had set up a false choice for yourself. There was no reason for you to be depreseed or hurt your industry. Ther is no prohibition against having sexual feelings towards members of the same sex. The only prohibition is on acting on those feelings. The choice you offered to yourself is a false one. One of either remaining alone all your life or giving in to your desires. This choice is the product of the society we live in.In fact this is not true at all.First of all sexuality is not all or nothing, there is a spectrum. Secondly, people with the exact same genetics (identical twins) more then half the time do not turn out gay if the other twin is gay. Thirdly, sexuality is changeable - For proof all you need do is look at ancient greece where every male was a homosexual and in fact most were even pedophiles (btw not comparing). Now, were they all born homosexual or pedophiles. The idea that our sexual desires are born and there is no hope of changing them is a false claim made by this society, WITHOUT ANY SCIENTIFIC PROOF TO BACK IT UP. If instead of getting depressed you had accepted that you have certain feelings, gotten married with a female whose nature is similar to yours and whose physical appearance is somewhat manly, then come up with a plan to think about men when you are having sex with her, and to think less and less of men every month, then your mind would begin to associate the pleasure of sex with females and your sexuality would gradually change over time. Of course due to your past I don't expect that'll happen (due to living in such an ignorant society, with false ideas masquerading as knowledge and an utter lack of creative thinking or workable solutions due to our being in Galut and having no Sanhedrin or any Rabanim with real Smichah) makes this seem impossible due to the pasts dissapointments. All I can tell you is that in my mind you are a victim of the society and Galut we live in, but that if you try to do this, the rewards, a decade from now will be an amazing happy life with a beautiful family, if not then I think in a decade you will be so far away from God that you will be one of those who attack and hate religious people. But if it's too duanting for you to uproot yourself out of the comfort you've built for youself with your same sex relationship, then here are a couple of tips. If you are at any point, in any way open to making an attempt (an attempt that would not impact your comfort at all) then here are some tips. 1. The next time you and your friend are having relations or doing anything of the kind - Imagine that he is a woman (even one who is manly looking) - this will, over time (months to years) get your brain to associate sexual pleasure with females and thus like women. 2. Ask a rabbi for permission to get pornography with women. - This will, again over time, desensitize you to women so they are not repulsive (if you are on this end of the spectrum) and then eventually make you like women. Of course, I realize that these suggestions seem disgusting and offensive to alot of people here, so I apologies for offending you in advance. I also realize that you will probably reject everything I have to say, but I hold out hope, and I will pray to God each day that somewhere down the line you might consider making just one last honest attempt at it, even the attempt prescribed above which doesn't require any sacrifice on your part but is just a couple of mental exercises. I will pray each day, whether you like it or not, that God send you have beautiful wonderful children with your soulmate at the appointed time and that youhave great nachat and happiness from all of them. Just as it was such a struggle for you to get there so too proportionally should be your happiness once you get there.
Maybe. I think it would be great if people were open-minded enough to appreciate that people can be gay and celibate. It would mean that Orthodox Jewish gays at least could be honest and not feel ashamed. As is, the best option for a gay guy who wants to stay 100% frum is to remain closeted and make up excuses as to why you're not dating. However, I don't really know if what you propose can actually happen - what kind of institutional support does this kind of scheme have? And, given how difficult it seems to be for Catholic priests to remain celibate, I wouldn't take the "success" of the priesthood as evidence that this type of system would attract the confidence of the masses.
An any case, this still leaves open the question of how to deal with those people who simply cannot cope with celibacy. The fact that I (and presumably you) am not in this category does not give me the right to judge those who are. Different people have different emotional needs and abilities. What is possible for you is impossible for others, and vice versa. I would like to believe that God never puts anybody into an impossible situation, but I really have a hard time reconciling that belief with reality. Even granting that failure to adhere to halacha points to some moral failing, I don't see how this implies that we should cut these people out of our communities.
"the same way that the you can assume that a man and woman living together dont sleep together while she is a niddah."
Halacha is, a man could be trusted with his nidah wife as he has slept with her before and knows its only a matter of time. on the contrary if someone marries a nida he must sleep in separate quarters as he has never slept with her, and might fall to temptation. your ignorance is very telling.
"I am as orthodox as you are. How dare you question my orthodoxy simply because I have serious questions about the nature of God."
No you are not, I don't question accepted interpretations, be it of six words in vayikra, or anything else. You have trouble accepting such, therefore you are not orthodox. period. it has nothing to do with any other struggle you might have, or question about god.
In addition your logical faculties have too been compromised as those "six words" have little complexity to their meanings.
"I think it would be great if people were open-minded enough to appreciate that people can be gay and celibate."
You can be gay and celibate, as long as your don't room with another man, or engage in any act of physical intimacy.
Anonymous1:45, I'm curious if you or someone you know has tried this approach, and how long it's worked for. It seems like a recipe for disaster. The scientific evidence on "reparative therapy" in general is fairly damning.
Anonymous 12:26. Are you implying that gay people are forbidden from having roommates (in contrast with straight people)? That gay people should not hug or shake hands with people of the same gender?
Maybe we should structure our yeshivas and sleepaway camps to make sure the gays are isolated in their own rooms. Also, I suppose whenever someone tries to give me a hug I should quickly let them know that I'm gay!
Do you have any halachic sources to back this up?
All of your assumptions that sexaulity cannot be changed are societaly derived and have no basis in either scientific or historic fact. Were the ancient greeks all born Gay? This and many other examples in history shows that sexuality is maleable if the desire is there and the effort is made and the proper strategies are adopted. Celibacy is not part of Judaism (unless your at the level of Moshe Rabeinu where you are in prophetic contact with God 24/7). No one is looking down on anybody. You don't accept your shortcummings in Judaism. You work on correcting them. You accept that you have them and you attempt to remain happy always, but you do not accept them in the sense of saying it's fine for me never to change it. Saying "I do everything elese right so I'm okay or better then others who have shortcummings" is not the right way. The right way is to work on your own stuff regardless of other people and to do so in a happy manner not in a deppressed manner. I don't know , I mean I can only look at things through my own eyes, so maybe asking someone to live for God is too much. I don't know how God will judge you, but you know what, neither do you. So, just as you don't like me saying that it's not okay with God, how about you don't say it's okay with God, because I don't think you're a prophet. So just as you say I don't know perhaps you should also by the same logic, say. you don't know. And, since we've established that logically speaking neither of us can know Gods judgement, then since you don't know, why not meke the attempt here end ther every once in a while, with the strategies I satated in my comment before this one.
>Maybe. I think it would be great if people were open-minded enough to appreciate that people can be gay and celibate. It would mean that Orthodox Jewish gays at least could be honest and not feel ashamed.
This is the crux of my point - turn what is currently a negative perception into a positive perception. I know many Irish Catholic families where a son who goes into the priesthood is considered an honor to the family...
>However, I don't really know if what you propose can actually happen - what kind of institutional support does this kind of scheme have?
Don't know - never heard anyone propose it before...
>And, given how difficult it seems to be for Catholic priests to remain celibate, I wouldn't take the "success" of the priesthood as evidence that this type of system would attract the confidence of the masses.
I don't know where people get stats on this - as far as I know most priests remain celibate.
>An any case, this still leaves open the question of how to deal with those people who simply cannot cope with celibacy.
Well, not sure what you're saying there. On a personal level, it is a matter between that person and God. On a communal level, I cannot see an Orthodox community approving that behavior as has been acknowledged by everyone here... That person may consider joining a Conservative community - it is not the end of the world...
Let's grant that sexuality is to a large part determined by society. So what? The actual scientific evidence regarding people trying to change their sexuality once its been determined indicates that it's usually a pretty negative experience and doesn't usually work. It's true, Judaism emphasizes self-improvement. Can you make another woman, who has her own feelings, needs and desires the guinea pig for your experiment? This seems highly immoral, and is also, in any case, impractical. Where are you going to find a woman who is willing to marry a gay man? If I were a woman I would never consent to such an arrangement.
Again, do you have ANY evidence whatsoever that this approach has ever worked in the long term?
It seems to me that lots of people in the Orthodox community have tried to pull stunts like this, The results are usually not pretty. Are you willing to face the woman and possibly children when everything blows up and tell them, "well, Judaism teaches us not to quit."
For shame.
Shame on those who require people to deceive their spouses.
Shame on people who tell homosexuals that God will help them change their sexuality. What are we to think when God doesn't answer our prayers?
Shame on those who bring unnecessary guilt and shame on the heads of bewildered souls by telling them they're not trying hard enough to change.
Were you paying attention at Mincha today?
ג ואל-יאמר בן-הנכר, הנלווה אל-יהוה לאמור, הבדל יבדילני יהוה, מעל עמו; ואל-יאמר הסריס, הן אני עץ יבש. {פ}
ד כי-כה אמר יהוה, לסריסים אשר ישמרו את-שבתותיי, ובחרו, באשר חפצתי; ומחזיקים, בבריתי. ה ונתתי להם בביתי ובחומותיי, יד ושם--טוב, מבנים ומבנות: שם עולם אתן-לו, אשר לא ייכרת.
3 Neither let the alien, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying: 'The LORD will surely separate me from His people'; neither let the eunuch say: 'Behold, I am a dry tree.' {P}
4 For thus saith the LORD concerning the eunuchs that keep My sabbaths, and choose the things that please Me, and hold fast by My covenant:
5 Even unto them will I give in My house and within My walls a monument and a memorial better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting memorial, that shall not be cut off. {S}
1. I know quite alot about ancient greek history as I am quite a history buff. Ther is nothing incorrect about my statement on the Greeks (research ancient greece and Eros/Eromanos) - Therefore, the point remains that a society of people (who were presumably mostly born with heterosexual proclivities) were made to find homosexuality and pedophelia pleasurable. Thus, prooving that sexuality is maleable. There are other historical eveidence of this including societies where incest is routine (jouhansi people papua newguinea..)and there are different rates of homosexuality in different societies, again if this is only biological this shouldn't be the case. Also identical twins studies show that if one twin is gay , then it does not follow that the other one will be, which you would expect if it were all biological. 2. Most of the psychological knowledge of human sexuality is based on Kinseys' studies. Kinsey was a homosexual and a pedophile, who it has now been shown, used a population of other pedophiles for his studies on human sexuality. Secondly, psychology is not a hard science like math or physics, in fact just a few decades ago homoseuality was considered a mental disorder. The acceptance of a trait as normal or the classification of a trait as a disorder in psychology often has more to do with shifting societal attitudes then with any scientific proof. Third, the studies on changing a persons sexual desire, these metastudies include alot of b.s. places that do b.s. methods like pray the gay away instead of real methods like association and conditioning (i.e. neurons that fire together wire together), so of course there conclusion is that it can't be changed. The reality is that the human brain can rewire itself over time in any way the person wants if the desire is there and enough effort is made and the right strategies are employed. But if you refuse to believe in any possibility of change due to stupid conventional wisdom then the journey ends there, i suppose. Please just make one last honest effort before giving up. Humor me. Do it just so that in a year you can get back on here and type what an idiot that anon 1:45 is. What do you have to lose? They're mental startegies anyways. You don't have to change your lifestyle at all.
To correct Anonymous 1:45's misinformation, just in case anyone else read it:
-Not all ancient Greeks participated in homosexuality. For those who did, one need not do more than read Symposium to know that Greek homosexuality is fairly complicated. It was expected as part of a mentor-student relationship in some circles, and looked down upon in other circles. Philosophers encouraged it for rational reasons, because they believed that one could not have an intellectual relationship with a woman. Even in reading Symposium, though, one can see a distinction between those who engage in homosexuality as part of a social ritual, and those who were more exclusively homosexual (see Aristophanes' myth, for example, and Agathon generally.)
-Anonymous 1:45 claims twin studies don't show a connection between biology and homosexuality, because there's less than 50% concordance. You don't know what you are talking about-- a concordance between monozygotic twins well under 50% provides evidence for a genetic contribution. And studies have shown the concordance between monozygotic twins is considerably higher than between dizygotic twins.
To quote the AAP: "The high concordance of homosexuality among monozygotic twins and the clustering of homosexuality in family pedigrees support biological models."
(Sources:http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;113/6/1827#R5; Stronski Huwiler SM, Remafedi G. Adolescent homosexuality. Adv Pediatr.1998; 45 :107 –14)
-There is no evidence from randomized clinical trials that sexual orientation can be changed. There were a couple studies following up on people who had already chosen to do reparative therapy, making them a very different sample. And regarding those, I quote: "the first study claimed that change was possible for a small minority (13%) of LGB people, most of who could be regarded as bisexual at the outset of therapy(Spitzer, 2003). The second showed little effect as well as considerable harm (Shidlow and Schroeder, 2002)."
Source:http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/college/specialinterestgroups/gaylesbian/submissiontothecofe/psychiatryandlgbpeople.aspx
So again: please stop referring to science. You don't know what you are talking about.
Abstained, there's a big difference between approval and tolerance. The Orthodox community doesn't approve of people breaking Shabbos, but we generally allow them to daven in our shuls. Perhaps this wasn't always the case; times have changed, and I think that's a good thing. I don't approve of people cheating on their taxes or beating their wives; people don't usually get kicked out of shul for that, either. I don't approve of money-laundering or illegally selling kidneys, but people don't seemed to get kicked out of shul for that, either. I don't really like Chabad, but they've got something right, here (at least their outreach wings). They'll try to print as much information as they can to keep Jews from intermarrying, yet they'll reach out to intermarried people and make sure they retain their Jewish identity. I think the Orthodox community can afford to be Meikel on a few things and be Machmir on Kavod HaBriot.
1.I never said to decieve anyone. I thought that would be obvious that the man would tell the woman sometime in the beginning of their dating, and if they really liked each other and were compatible then she might continue dating and see where it led. 2. In fact there are actual cases the I have read about and people that I have seen on t.v. (most recently on the Rachel Madow show on msnbc a few weeks ago) of people who were homosexual and were able to change there sexuality. 3. you don't know whether or not God will answer the prayers - God didn't answer yitchak and rivkas' prayer for a very long time, Avraham and Sarah didn't have kids till old age either. 4. I thought I was pretty clear in my intentions, but let me state it in plain words, I do not wish to shame anybody nor do I wish anyone to feel guilty, especially since for them guilt would be quite counterproductive and would only cause them to give up in exasperation. Rather, I meant without guilt just make the attempt to do the mental exercise i mentioned. Now what is the harm in that? theres' not even a woman involved.
Let me also point out that Anonymous1:45's mental strategies are completely assur halachically. You're not allowed to make yourself sexually aroused at all unless you're having sex with your wife. This is very explicit in Shulchan Aruch. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a heter for sexually stimulating oneself to pursue some crackpot theory that showed up on a comments thread. I'll stick with not having sex; I'm pretty sure God will not judge me too harshly for not fulfilling the commandment to be fruitful and multiply. I can't speak to how God will judge me in any other respect, but I really have no qualms about this one.
>Abstained, there's a big difference between approval and tolerance. The Orthodox community doesn't approve of people breaking Shabbos, but we generally allow them to daven in our shuls.
OK, I thought this was already covered. I don't think anyone is talking about kicking people out of shuls. When I said "communally approve" I am talking about publicly accepting a homosexual and their partner in shul as a couple.
"You don't have to change your lifestyle at all."
First of all, I'm not gay, I'm a psychology/neuroscience research student seeing how blatantly wrong you are.
-I answered what you said about Greeks in my previous post.
-Of course there can be societal influences on sexuality. That doesn't mean all sexuality is based on society. And all evidence suggests otherwise.
-"Also identical twins studies show that if one twin is gay , then it does not follow that the other one will be, which you would expect if it were all biological. "
Ha. There is NO psychological condition I know of for which there is 100% concordance between twins. That's absolutely ridiculous. The way you test for a genetic contribution is if twins are significantly more likely (in the statistical sense) to be the same way. That indicates a genetic contribution. This has been shown for homosexuality. Again, you don't know what you are talking about.
-"Third, the studies on changing a persons sexual desire, these metastudies include alot of b.s. places that do b.s. methods like pray the gay away instead of real methods like association and conditioning (i.e. neurons that fire together wire together), so of course there conclusion is that it can't be changed. "
Metastudies? Pray the gay away? What on earth are you talking about? Reparative therapy is what these people use, which involves behavioral therapy (your precious "associations") and/or conversion therapy, which can involve aversive conditioning. No praying. Yet, there are NO randomized clinical trials supporting the idea that sexuality can be changed. Period. Besides which, see my previous comment for more details.
But I'm glad you think you know how best to conduct psychological manipulations, above the research. When you publish, I'll call to wish you a yasher koach.
"Let me also point out that Anonymous1:45's mental strategies are completely assur halachically. You're not allowed to make yourself sexually aroused at all unless you're having sex with your wife."
Yes. It is also forbidden to think of someone else while having sex with one's spouse.
Sam: First on the twin studies. You make a common mistake in analyzing the data. That is, genetic contribution is not the same thing as genetic predeterminance. In fact I clearly have said in my comments that people are born with proclivities, contribution however is not the same thing as predetermined outcome. To clarify, here is an example. A person can have a genetic disease such as downsyndrome or a person can have green eyes. That is not a genetic contribution; that is a genetic predetermination. On the other hand a person can have a genetic contribution tthat increases the chances of heart disease - however, this is not predetermined for example if the person eats healthy, exercises, and takes vitamins and supplements - this can be overcome. According to the twin studies, Homosexuality falls in the later category of contribution, not with the former examples of predetermined genetic outcome. continued below..
Secondly, regarding the ancient greeks. They were a hedonistic, pleasure driven society. To describe their sexual practices as purely ritualistic is to misunderstand there society; as though they held their noses and just had to do so because of religious beliefs. In fact the way they did these things was not so, it was in a plausure seeking hedonistic way. In fact, Plato actually (when discussing Socrates' discourse) talks about how he was not so into eros/eromanos as the others were while discussing philosophy. The greeks as a matter of fact derived pleasure from all their sexual activities, which shows that the human beings sexuality is not fixed.
> OK, I thought this was already covered. I don't think anyone is talking about kicking people out of shuls. When I said "communally approve" I am talking about publicly accepting a homosexual and their partner in shul as a couple.
First of all, this kicking people out of shuls business unfortunately actually happens as a matter of fact.
Second, are you suggesting that they can go to shul, but people shouldn't invite them for Shabbat? People shouldn't be friends with them? People should ostracize them? That doesn't seem to be Kavod HaBriot either.
If you mean, you don't have to announce their engagement in shul, I think I can live with that.
"That is not a genetic contribution; that is a genetic predetermination. On the other hand a person can have a genetic contribution tthat increases the chances of heart disease - however, this is not predetermined for example if the person eats healthy, exercises, and takes vitamins and supplements - this can be overcome."
Again, you don't know what you are talking about. That's not how psychological conditions work. Schizophrenia is presently known as the most biological of mental conditions. Do you know the concordance rate between monozygotic twins, who share all their genes? 28% to 47%, depending on the study. And there are no "vitamins" you can take to stop it. Environmental factors, which we cannot predict, can determine whether or not genes get expressed, and once they are expressed, you can't "choose" otherwise. Other environmental factors can then add to the psychosocial mix, depending what you are talking about, but that does not change the fact of a biological contribution.
And don't condescend to me about understanding how to analyze data. I assure you I know what i"m talking about;this is my field. Take a class in psychology and then let's talk.
I didn't say they were "purely ritualistic." I distinguished between social homosexuality and homosexuality as a preference, which is clear already in Symposium. And what's worse for you is, the philosophical point of view of the time (as represented there) did look down on people who used eros for physical pleasure. The philosophers did believe it should be purely rational.
That's somewhat irrelevant because most people probably did not. But there is still the clear distinction I made above. There were people who were married to a woman but courted a young lover as part of the mentor-lover relationship; then there were guys who only went with other guys--and were looked down on by the rest of society for it.
>Second, are you suggesting that they can go to shul, but people shouldn't invite them for Shabbat? People shouldn't be friends with them? People should ostracize them? That doesn't seem to be Kavod HaBriot either.
First of all, I am not saying what people should or shouldn't do. My point is simple:
1) Orthodox halacha equates homosexual relationships as sinful, just as it finds adulterous relationships sinful, or sex during niddah sinful. I don't see that being changed, but I am not a halachic expert.
2) As long as it is considered sinful, an Orthodox community will be able to legitimately lean on halacha to not approve of homosexual behavior. How will this manifest is not something I am defining, only pointing it out that in a halachic system they have something to lean on.
Now, there are frum people who have affairs, and their friends still invite them over for Shabbos. But I would not say that just because that happens, most Orthodox consider infidelity a valid and acceptable lifestyle...
Finally, pointing to the ancient Greeks shows that how homosexuality is viewed by society can change, and that society's views can have an influence on practice.
It does NOT show that homosexuality as an orientation is a choice, or that people can necessarily change their orientations.
Regarding what is halachically permissable I have to confess that I am probably not as knowlegeable as the rest of you, not having been really raised religious ( I am catching up though). So I do not know if you're corect or not. My reasoning however has to do with the gmarah of mechalel shabat lishmor shabatot. In other words the goal is to do what God says so if the only concievable way is to do something wrong (in the shulchan aruch) now , so that in the future you will consistently do the right things that God wants then it should be allowed. I shuld reiterate, I did say in my comment to consult s rabbi. as far as I'm concerned the main mitzvah of the Torah is Veasita Hayashar Vehatov Beeinei Hasem, thus I believe the strategies I suggested are allowed in order to achieve that end. As far as remaining celibate. Not only does it violate pru urvu. but I don't think it is possible. I think in most cases if the person can never express their sexuality then eventually they will give in, if they have no hope of expressing it in the future in the corect manner.
Sam: First, regarding the greeks; the difference between social and as a preferance is immaterial. The fact is they enjoyed it, therefore human sexuality is maleable. Next, regarding psychological conditions never having a 100% concordance. Number one Himan sexuality is not a psychological condition so to compare to schyzophrenia is ridiculous. Number two as you mentioned the fact that it is not a 100% shows that there are societal contributors. You assume that is is societal or environmental. You (and this is why I stated before that psychology is not a hard science like math)have no evidence that it is not the persons will or choices in life, that makes up (at least to a significant degree) the rest of the percentage points as to why some id twins get it and others don't.
As far as the pray the gay away thing my point was that the studies on reparative therapy include various methods not one standard therapy and course of treatment that can be studied for efficacy. Thus they inlude ways that could work with those that don't, and there is no desire due to accepted theory, to study into determining which ways work and which don't. It would be like taking a hojpoj of different studies the efficacy of various supplements on heart disease, and not differentiating between the different suppelements used. One could use co- q- 10 (effective) and one could use voodoo b.s. The outcome would be that no supplements can treat it. Secondly I never said anything about supplements for gays. I was making a point about heart disiease having genetic contributions but not being predetermined.
"First, regarding the greeks; the difference between social and as a preferance is immaterial. The fact is they enjoyed it, therefore human sexuality is maleable."
Are you for real? Of course the difference is material, because it shows that while social actions can be changed, that has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not sexual preference can be changed. To put it in simpler language: there were Greeks who did it because it was cool, and there were Greeks who did it because they were gay. The former could change, the latter could not. You'd have to be incredibly dense not to understand that.
" Number one Himan sexuality is not a psychological condition so to compare to schyzophrenia is ridiculous."
I didn't say it's a disorder, or an abnormal condition. Read more carefully. But of course it's a psychologically determined state. What do you think sexual desire is determined by, the liver? The comparison to schizophrenia is not about abnormality, but about the effects of genetic influences on the mind and behavior, and how genetic influences generally work--which you clearly have no understanding of or background in. Why you are still arguing this point is beyond me.
"Number two as you mentioned the fact that it is not a 100% shows that there are societal contributors. You assume that is is societal or environmental. You (and this is why I stated before that psychology is not a hard science like math)have no evidence that it is not the persons will or choices in life, that makes up (at least to a significant degree) the rest of the percentage points as to why some id twins get it and others don't."
First of all, you don't seem to know how experimental method works in psychology, so again, take a psych class before you tell me what kind of science it is.
Second, there is lots of evidence of what does cause homosexuality as a normal variation. I linked to several articles that discuss this; if you care to read them instead of talking about what you think is or is not proven, you might learn something.
Besides which, your assumption makes no sense from a scientific pov, or a philosophy of science pov. What you desire is a function of the mind and the brain. You are suggesting people develop certain desires because they desire it. That is not a tenable scientific thesis; it's circular nonsense.
Re: your last comment about reparative therapy-- here's a question for you. For the studies out there that do look at reparative therapy, have you ever read one? Even one?
And yes, there are studies that looked at different methods of therapy together, but a)they included regular types of therapy frequently used for other types of psychological changes, b) this is because they were followup studies using self-recruitment, not randomized prospective studies, so they didn't have much of a choice. They still searched for what was statistically significant.
Again, there are no randomized clinical studies showing what you want to show, so the fact that you believe it whole-heartedly as some kind of fact simply defies any form of logic.
"Anonymous 12:26. Are you implying that gay people are forbidden from having roommates (in contrast with straight people)?"
It not in contrat with staight people, it's a pararelll, just a straight people may not have female roommate, gay males may not have male roomates.
"That gay people should not hug or shake hands with people of the same gender?"
Ditto
"Maybe we should structure our yeshivas and sleepaway camps to make sure the gays are isolated in their own rooms. Also, I suppose whenever someone tries to give me a hug I should quickly let them know that I'm gay!"
You definitely should.
"Do you have any halachic sources to back this up?"
שו"ע אבן העזר - סימן כד
(א) לא נחשדו ישראל על משכב זכר ועל הבהמה, לפיכך אין איסור להתייחד עמהן
Someone who is suspect of mishkav zochor, it is forbidden to be miyached with them. (note this applies when one party is gay and the other is straight, all the more so, when both parties are gay)
Shana (we've read that too)
In your own words, "there is no one consistent opinion"
Alex, you won't miss the cuisine or the company. Fake frumkeit stinks.
Some people are smug. They are convinced of their own superiority. Let them be.
Those who try to do what's right, who care and love and cry are cherished by the Almighty.
Anonymous 9:43,
Sympathy for the gay struggle aside, I'm fascinated by the way you seem to know who is cherished by the Almighty
I might easily be on a lower rung than struggling gays, but I certainly wouldn't claim that I know this one way or the other.
'care..love..cry..' - that's only a part of it.
Din dana, dina.
"I certainly wouldn't claim that I know this one way or the other."
"rachmana liba b'ai."
Truth, justice, kindness.
V'halachta bidrachav, mah hu rachum or is that asking too much?
Anonymous 10:23,
Yes, He wants the heart. And it would seem that those who love, care and cry are cherished by the Almighty.
But it's easy to get carried away by that and to say that's all it's about - because it isn't.
I guess you didn't really say that, but I thought it might have been slightly implied in this case. So I commented.
Also, it goes without saying, that there is an undeniable, natural and deep sympathy for the gay struggle in an orthodox community - especially when a person will describe their pain as Alex and others have.
But I just wanted to put that 'given' aside for a moment, to make my point.
It's not all about love and care and the heart - though sometimes I think I would find it easier if it were -
it's also about 'vhalachta bidrachav' - as you said.
Dunno, duna.
As you imply, nobody really knows the ultimates until we meet them panim el panim, which all do.
Observe the law, get rewarded; transgress, bad girl.
Yet, yesh she-konim olamam b'sha'ah echat, and that's not through the sum of points, but broken hearts.
Anonymous 12:54
I hear you.
... and the 'dunno' sounds correct to me in this case- because we can't know the Ultimate til later (again - as you said)
Also - I've always loved the idea of the passuk you mentioned. It has a dramatic, intense and very emotional feel to it. It's seems like the ultimate connection to G-d, born in the span of just a moment. I guess, (but don't know), that it would be the outcome of sacrifice? Powerful stuff.
Who knows?
What about a shidduch service that can match frum gay men and women? That way everyone can fulfill the mitzva to procreate even if through artificial insemination and in essence have a Jewish lifetstyle.
Whatever understanding the couple would have regarding how they express their "individuality" will be amongst them.
This way neither man nor woman would be hurt by future revelations and everyone can go home happy.
Sruli, be our guinea pig. Try it out and let us know. Invite us to the wedding.
Anonymous 2:28 PM
If you find me a gay frum woman in her 20's to marry, I'll show up on her doorstep tomorrow.
Well, if you're serious, this is an option.
But, there are many men with fetishes married to people who don't share their enthusiasms. I know someone who is deeply disappointed that his wife isn't into s/m. It's not my scene, but he claims he doesn't actually want to hurt anyone. Who can blame his wife if she disagrees? He's sexually frustrated, not that different than someone born gay, inclined to cheat etc.
All marriages are built on compromise. Most are purposive, not lifelong romances. Anyone who wants to fulfill piryeh v'rivyeh gets married. Anyone who wants to complain moves to the upper west side.
Anonymous 3:04. We're not animals.
Thank you for bringing that up, something Chana might appreciate.
Marriage, nisuin, kiddushin raises sex to a spiritual level. The goal, ultimately, isn't self fulfillment, satisfaction, but giving to another, forming a partnership with the Ribbono shel Olam.
On the other hand, the sitra achra if you will, sits the nefesh ha-Bahamas.
Sex is animalistic. We are supposed to transcend the material, which gays have a right to argue they also seek to do. The only problem is one is in pursuit of mitsvot, and the other, nefesh ha-behamit.
Anonymous 3:04 PM
I did not mean gay men and straight women, i meant gay men and gay women. This marriage can be more of an arrangement. They can have kids and a normal family structure.
As a gay(maybe bi-i wouldnt really know) guy this would be a way for me to marry like i want to,have kids, have nobody whose business it is not, kept out of my personal life. No one has to know under the chuppa whats happening except the chosson and kalah. no parents, friends, grandparents etc, just them and whatever org arranged the shidduch.
This is a touchy topic, especially with gays who feel honesty is the most compelling value.
Rabbi Riskin has recently validated their position, fair to straight females expecting everything a straight woman has the right to expect from an open, honorable, fulfilled marriage. But, the fact remains that there are many men out there who, while not gay, remain unfulfilled in their marriages. They want the forbidden, some want more than their wives are willing to offer, a situation not too dissimilar from the homosexual paradox.
Some of these men cheat. It's not nice. It's not kosher. It's not right. They do it anyway. Some are very "frum."
Most, we hope, do not. Some do. We would characterize them as dishonest, certainly not scrupulously honest. There's a large Halachik literature dealing with the questions of mekach ta'ut; the argument is strong for honesty. But, those who are being honest about ssa stirrings aren't being treated very nicely. They are subject to the scorn of bigotry, homophobia, cruelty, more animal than anything they imagine. So, what's right? To tell all, or shade the truth mipne darkei shalom? I don't know.
If you're serious, put up an ad on a singles platform and see the results. David Benkoff (formerly Bianco) is looking for any Jewish woman who will take him as he is, despite his open, public gay past. To the best of my knowledge he's still single which is why your question is interesting.
But, since you admit you can consummate a marriage, why not just make one work. Your desires may never go away, but if the equipment functions and you want kids, you might meet someone really nice who will love, respect and appreciate you - and you will do the same.
Are women any different? They're all different, of course, but there are complicated women who want someone else than the men they are married to. They stay married anyway. Some of these are marriages of convenience, some are deeply flawed and unhappy. Others, might succeed. Why not give that a chance before seeking the improbable?
Terrible post. Chana, you missed the point. And when Mordecai eloquently clarified a few things, you became defensive and started calling people names.
You have 272 comments (and counting) here. It's scary that you have so many readers. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing... as you proved so well. I hope your readers can tell the difference.
Adam:
" Chana, you missed the point. And when Mordecai eloquently clarified a few things, you became defensive and started calling people names"
What rubbish!
Posting my info and request on SawYouAtSodom.com would defeat the purpose of having this marriage arrangement kept between the bride and groom. I might as well just invite people to my sharade wedding, with that written on the invite.
I didnt say that the marriage can be consumated. I assume it can. Who knows while Im at it what will happen.
And even if it can be consumated, it is not fair to a woman, bc my main attraction is to men. and my straight wife would deserve to have a husband who want her (want fully) and can be excited to be with her, not just enough to get it over with.
Like the speaker last week who had a date tell him that she deserves to have a husband who "wants" to be with her. i had the same experience with a girl i dated. she said she sees that i am not as excited when i see her as i should be. I knew what that was about, she did not.
It was just a though, that one of the gay youth org's can possibly arrange a match like this for willing men and women members.
I think you'd have to be very lucky to arrange something like this.
SoyouatSodom.com,
very funny.
A lot of folks are single. It's not the end of the world. Some people are very picky; others, get passed over.
Some are content with themselves.
Nobody should have to lie about love.
So now we know some jqy members like Gomorroh.
" That person may consider joining a Conservative community - it is not the end of the world..."
Why is the Conservative movement used as the last refuge for Orthodox rabbis who can't think of a solution for a problem.
I know Conservative rabbis who get referrals from Orthodox rabbehem to do conversions of women just for the sake of marriage. They would never do the conversion themselves since they would be scorned as rabbis. But they have no problem referring them - under the table - to Conservative rabbis who they know are otherwise strict in their approach to conversion. They see the problem of alienating the Jewish spouse and of the potential for non Jewish children to enter the Jewish populace, but the dont have the courage to face the issue head on with a frank halachic discussion on the issue.
This is identical to what you are suggesting above. If you cant think of a way for an orthodox community to accept gays, then just ship them off to the Conservative community. You dont recognize these communities as valid anyway, so why should they bother?
Steve, as you know, Conservative Judaism is liberal.
This option is attractive if one misses familiar melodies and ethnic food.
The vast majority don't care.
You think you can dream up a quick fix to this problem, something "creative?" Reinterpret the verses in ways to fit/justify an "alternative" lifestyle? You belong in a Conservative synagogue, too. You'll fit right in. No conversion necessary.
Anonymous, I know you think you are clever and really in tune with what's right and wrong. But I have been reading what you have written here.. and your tone is very negative and thoughtless. I know you have pretended to be sympathetic but your true feelings about anybody who lives their life differently from you are patently obvious.
Dear Steve,
You should write a book, make a movie and some money off of them as well.
@Anonymous Dec 27 4:52-
I'm an art student, whose transitioning post classes, pre-degree into a job. I do read very heavily,. Further, My degree in order to provide a good defense during a critique, requires me to provide good philosophical and art historical sources. So I better be well read. And have seen a lot of stuff. So I guess I now sound like a philosophy student.
I also help bounce comments/community management issues under my real name under a very famous business blog about how this blog works and it's coming relevance in the next decade. I watch you all and what you do because I help define the market. Believe it or not. So I'm usually busy. I should be drawing wireframes... Plus I blog separately occasionally the theoretic of web design for a multiplicity of devices, and about the devices themselves. Trust me, this would bore you immensely. I generally only have male MBAs and comp sci people read my stuff, which I find hilariously funny at times if only because I can't always take the pressure of performing. You talk to the people at Google and Microsoft as a student and then see how you feel. (Realize that this blog and its design is determined by Google.)
I only comment at this point after profound education by the best and brightest in how to comment- because I've been slammed by a lot of people. I earned my respect. You name calling me is nothing: I've been called a techno-communist before, with commentary as to why. Throw something a little something more substantive through my arguments, please. Let's raise the bar.
I happen to be leaving orthodoxy now because of the very issues I raised. I think they are that level of important. If they can't be satified, why should I stay. So making fun of them is also a poor response. It shows part of the very reasons that I leave. It also shows your own lack of knowledge: The Rambam grappled with Neoplatonism and the Rav with high Modernism. Why shouldn't someone now grapple with post-modernism? Shouldn't that be a fruitful and celebrated idea within a historical and contemporary understanding of what it means to be Jewish.
@Dina-
Pretty close, close enough. You got most of the major points. To write down a whole thing is very time consuming in comments, though it seems to be very normal here.
Rav Gil makes similar points by referring to a post by Dr. Brill about post-evangelism in Christians He takes them quite negatively, as if the end of the world. I think I might be more aware of the movement of media as well as its philosophical underpinnings. I'm less bothered by these being core issues, and them being unsovable on a community level (since after all- there may be no community except on a consensus level, or many overlapping consensus levels), the identity of someone orthodox may come from the individual.
This is not the only issue that is in the running facing postmodernism. Agunot was one mentioned. Conversion is hot right now- truthfully any Jewish person who does not conform to a traditional view, particularly american white view of what a Jewish person does. Aliza Hausman and a guy named Ma Nishtana make that point very effectively) . (I will say white. Aliza Hausman has talked about the halachic politics of having nappy hair in a mikvah)
Part two later
However even with a lack of consistent opinions (don't expect them, ever): You can come up with consistent consensus, and bright line tests for those inside and those outside. You don't have to accept every consensus. The axion of choice (I realize I am using a math axiom) would allow me to state that even if I don't know who everyone will be in the new set that I will create from my previous unknown, but finite sets (there are only a finite amount of Jewish people out there), doesn't mean it is impossible to do. You just might end up with the choice of yourself, an identity function. (And yes, I have some awareness of the axiom of determinacy- but the only player you can get with that is God. You can't get two players. So it would be God versus Human. humans do not have prefect information. Throw that one out.)
And that's the problem. Do you really want a world of just yourself? And what makes my set part of the not? Consensus driven decisions in a networked sphere makes us really aware, that perhaps, for all that I sound like a philosophy major who will challenge you about the fractures in the community at large, there is hope in this. and Zei Gezunt to that.
No one person is really that important before God, (only God is he is the king, the father he is everything, and we often lose sight of that), and on top of that, the Torah and its laws "Lo Yihiyah ba shamayim hi" ok then where is it? How does this all work? The way modernism is conceived and applied to the real world, you can and will get that. That does not make for a very spiritually or theologically engaging world. Nor one where actual Halachic problems get solved rather than rammed into the mud.
@Brian
Name all the axiomic (and I mean axiomic that everyone can agree on, remember scholarship counts here, if even in the period of the rambam the rambam can't agree on the ikkarim, we're throwing those out the window) for what it means to be within halacha. Then also name the axiomic functions to develop halacha.
You are going to have a really difficult time because there are practically none if you look at its history (start with This Book, A History of the Jewish People, Harvard University Press, Bit on the dense side though, but great resource, though missing Judaism in India. I think this is the textbook they use in most major college courses as a basic intro.)
@Chana
Please Get a commenting system to override what is going on here, the threading here is terrible. Something like Disqus. Getting emails or something would be helpful. I don't think pageviews is what you are going for, are you making serious money in advertising? I can't imagine the headache in moderating this is for you...Oy.
MaidlShayna,
Don't leave Orthodoxy. You are challenging, bright, important.
I haven't read all the responses, so forgive me if someone has already said this.
Chana attacks the idea that we humans are entitled, deserve things from Hashem. I agree but I find a problem: I don't think any of the panelists took this view; they spoke of things they deserve *from other people*, not from G-d. Let's not shun responsibilities.
A more general comment: I appreciate that people try to be understanding, and it's not a black-or-white situation, but it amazes me that some people can be extremely judgmental in a kind of dispassionate way. Let's try to be as literal as possible about "don't judge your neighbor until you stand in his place" - no, it's not like cleptomania, and it's not like craving treif; all these comparisons are flawed and beyond the point.
Alex,
I am so sorry for your pain and all you have been through and are going through. It sounds like such constant heartbreak. I'm just so sorry for it....chazak v'ematz.
A point that seems to be missing from this thread is that the agunah situation is also a moral outrage, and we routinely convene conferences in the Orthodox world in an attempt to solve the "agunah problem." We extend all sorts of kulos to solve agunot situations. Agunah is a problem that we try to solve; by your own analogy, so should homosexuality in halacha.
Michael P:
There is a difference between the agunah problem and homosexuality.
If a woman is an agunah because her husband has gone missing, there are ways to try to resolve that.
If a woman is an agunah because her husband won't write a get, there are organizations such as ORA which will try to help her. BTW, there are websites and blogs which attack ORA and the rabbis who advise it. I decline to publicize them here. I will send links to Chana, if she asks.
OTOH, certain homosexual acts are clearly forbidden by our Torah. There is no way around that, just as there is no solution if a husband wants to be a total jerk and insists on not writing his wife a get if the marriage is over.
Let's focus on agunah situations where we're not sure if the husband is dead.
Now, we pull all sorts of kulos in order to help these women. Why? Because halacha should help these women. What we need is a thorough investigation of hilchos mishkav zachar that goes beyond "it's clearly assur." What is clearly assur? What is it similar to? What does the Torah forbid? Why does the Torah forbid it? Etc.
Michael P:
You make an interesting point. Perhaps you could ask that question of some rabbis.
As far as I know, all the YU Roshei Yeshiva have email accounts. I do not know if all of them check their email regularly.
Here is a link to the search page on the YU website:
http://www.yu.edu/search/
No rabbi that I know of would say anything besides "it's clearly assur." Sorry.
My point is that a thorough halachik discussion isn't necessary, because there is no other interpretation, in any (valid) source, that would be permissive. Agunah is different because there are all sorts of dinnim miderabanan, and there's one or more sfeikos to look at, and all sorts of fun hilchos eidus questions and many, many points to look into to try to find a kulah. Such features are not available in mishkav zachur: it's assur, and there's no way around it,
I wrote about my situation to a local rabbi of a very prominent shul, as an active member. I was quite despondent at the time and wrote it in an email. In that email I informed the Rav that he knew me well from shul but I was afraid to state my name. I described the breakup of my engagement over the issue of my homosexuality. I describe my depression and desire to possibly leave the community... or worse!!!
I left my email address and cell number and specifically told him that I understood that he could never halachically approve of this life, but that I just needed somebody to talk to.
His response.......
NADA - A GREAT BIG NADA!!!!
I made sure through a friend who printed it out.. that he saw it and read it. He still ignored it.
My only conclusion was that he really did not care if I killed myself or left the community altogether. It did not bother him, apparently that he even knew me personally. He was not even curious enough to find out who I was, never mind reach out a hand to help me cope.
He failed as a rabbi and has continued to fail as a rabbi on this issue.
This was many years ago before there was such openness on this subject. I am glad I didnt do anything stupid to myself then...so I can now partake in all the support and warmth that the community is finding (inlcuding the YU community) to understand my plight.
I know we have a long way to go but the discussion we are having here gives me hope that at least I will be able to be honest in the future about why I am not married or looking. I hope I will be invited as a Jew into the lives of my community members despite the fact of my same sex attractions, so as not to have to live a life of isolation due to my halachic convictions.
Thanks for the forum
NOTHING!!!!! No email
I cried when I read Chava's post, because I had been so happy about the event and, for the first time in a long time, so excited about the courage and compassion of modern orthodoxy. These new comments and attempts at refutation are tragic to me, because it is obvious how much they will hurt a very vulnerable segment of the orthodox community.
The only thing that all of these arguments, comparing homosexuality to other forbidden acts show us, is that their authors are blind to the essential role that love has for the neshama. It is poisonous to ask people to keep their most central-- and in many ways, most beautiful-- desires smothered in secrecy and shame. The question is not whether we want to legitimize forbidden acts. Of course we don't. It is whether we want to force jews to choose between leaving the derech and committing spiritual suicide!
NS:
and in many ways, most beautiful
Please tell me you don't actually mean that line.
Toeivah = disgusting. Period. Just because American society has glorified any and all types of love doesn't mean that we do. Call a spade a spade.
The word toeivah-- as traditionally interpreted in this context-- refers to a particular physical act. The Torah doesn't explain its condemnation, so there's really no way to know why that act is considered an abomination. It's not logical to use this mitzvah as evidence that Hashem finds homosexuality disgusting. The focus of the mitzvah is very specific and there's no exegetical tradition to broaden its scope.
I think your misunderstanding may be a common one. When I say love, I don't just mean sex. If you've ever been in love, you'll understand what a difference that makes. We're not asking people to "keep it in their pants." We're telling them they can never be with the people they find most beautiful and who who most occupy their minds-- who are their first thought in the morning and their last at night, and with whom they want to share their lives. And when they ask why, we tell them that their feelings are disgusting. The capacity to love is never disgusting.
American society has glorified all types of sex, but I think love may be a Jewish value. Hashem's ahava and rachmanus have always been our ideals, and there's no reason they shouldn't guide us in this discussion as well.
But "love" for another man, in the sense that the word is used, is supposed to be something disgusting. Would love for any other forbidden relation, in the sense that the word love is used in that context (i.e. different than saying "I love ice cream" and even, hopefully, different than "I love my dig") be "beautiful"? I think not.
dog*
1.many here quote & rely on the judgement of rabbi H. Schacter--strange given his immaturity & limitations in the area of human relations.
2.live & let live is not a component of many people's thinking & it should be.
3.Chana is a typical Orthidox bigot--if you break halacha & don't live,act,or think as I do you are worthless.
4.Who cares if there are gay groups or panels or discussions--don't approve,stay away.
5.Consider stopping to act like the Twerskys,Schacters, & other rabbinical homophobic rabbis--form your own views.
6.This is all shtus & the panelists have my utmost respect for daring to talk about a real issue despite the narrowness of the Chana's & her ilk.
No. Again-- the word toeivah only refers to anal sex. It does not refer to love. There is no source in the Torah to support your claim that homosexual love is "disgusting." You have adopted a cultural, rather than a biblical, perspective, and one which I think probably reflects what the previous poster louis rightly calls homophobia. Do not pass off your prejudices on Hashem.
In the end it is clear
1. no body in on the panel was making an appeal to change hallacha simply because our lives are hard.
2. nobody on the panel said anything like, hallacha must be changed because "we deserve to be loved and craved.
3. Nobody on the panel claimed that philosophically they deserve to get everything they want in life.
4. Nobody on the panel advocated any sexual actions whatsoever.
result. This whole note is an issue that Chana is dealing with in her mind, In that sense it is an interesting and poignant diatribe. but has nothing to do with the panel that took place.
Chana,
What you say about our not deserving anything from G-d, and that we owe G-d everything, is one hundred percent true. Our existence is entirely dependent on G-d, and we cannot possibly repay Him for that, no matter how hard we try.
However, I take issue with your statement that "if the struggle is over, if you are 20 years old and have made a rational decision to break the halakha, that saddens me. I think you are too young to give up the fight just yet. You cannot tell me it is impossible to live a celibate life."
A few points:
First, we (heterosexual people) cannot judge the beliefs, thoughts, or actions of a homosexual person. We cannot begin to comprehend how difficult it is for homosexuals to suppress their desires and refuse to act on them. The sexual drive is perhaps the strongest drive that humans feel, and we are hard-wired that way. This does not mean that if a homosexual acts on his desires, that is okay. A Torah prohibition remains a Torah prohibition. But just because a homosexual commits a forbidden act, it doesn't mean that he is forever lost or consigned to perdition.
All human beings have challenges. We all struggle with them. Homosexuals have perhaps the greatest challenge known to humankind. If they stumble, if they fall prey to forbidden acts, yes, that is wrong, but it doesn't ruin their entire lives, and all the other things they have done. The rest of us have other challenges, and we most likely stumble in them. Just because the sins we commit are less severe than the sins homosexuals might commit are does not necessarily mean that homosexuals are any less beloved in G-d's eyes than are heterosexuals. I think we can objectively say that homosexuals have a greater challenge than most of us do, so proportionally speaking, I'm not sure that G-d expects the same level of religious observance from homosexuals as He does from us. That is, I think G-d judges each person in accordance with the level of difficulty of his or her challenge(s). We sin, and we hope that G-d judges us not based on one case, or our observance or lack thereof of one mitzvah, but on the totality of our lives. We ought to hope, and indeed, I believe this to be the case, that G-d judges homosexuals in the same way.
I completely understand why you feel homosexuals must be vigilant in refraining from acting on their desires. The Torah describes the act of homosexuality as an "abomination", and the prescribed punishment is death. But again, I caution you not to feel the liberty to tell homosexuals what they can and cannot do without knowing exactly what situation they are in. The Mishnah in Pirkei Avot says not to judge a person until you have been in that person's place. To illustrate: Many people who survived the Holocaust lost their belief in G-d. Can we tell them that they are wrong for doing so? According to the mishnah, we cannot, unless we too survived the Holocaust, and emerged with our belief in G-d intact. (Even then, one has to take into account the unique circumstances of each individual, but the point is, short of having a parallel experience of another person and afterward maintaining one's belief in G-d, while that person does not, we cannot judge the person for not believing in G-d.)
Second, I believe, and please correct me if I am wrong, that the sensitivity that you and many others have regarding the violation of the prohibition of homosexual activity is due to the severity of this prohibition. This makes perfect sense. Homosexual activity is one of the worst sins a person can commit, and so deserves much attention.
(Continued in the next post.)
However, I think it is important not to lose sight of the fact that in Judaism, we have 613 mitzvot, plus many Rabbinic ordinances. Different people have different challenges, which means that all of us will violate different prohibitions over the course of our lifetimes. I think the mistake that many people make is to assume that a person who commits a homosexual act is much worse than a person who violates Shabbat or eats non-kosher food. While homosexual activity is clearly a far more severe sin than desecration of Shabbat or consumption of treif, I think this is only true in a general sense, as it applies to the Jewish community. When it comes to individuals, however, these levels of severity do not necessarily apply. Because different people have different strengths and weaknesses, different temptations and "non-temptations", what is easy for one person may be difficult for another, and what is difficult for that first person may be easy for the second person. A person who commits a homosexual act may not be worse than a person who violates Shabbat or eats non-kosher food, because the first person may have just as strong a desire to commit a sin as the second person has to commit a different sin. That is, when it comes to the individual, I think the severity of the sin may matter less, while the inclination a person has to commit it may matter more. If a person has a strong desire to commit a sin, whatever the sin, and falls prey to it, he or she is held less accountable than a person who commits a sin for which he or she has no great desire or inclination. Therefore, a person who is biologically homosexual, and commits a homosexual act, may not be any worse than a person who has a strong temptation to commit what we consider to be a less severe sin, and does so.
In fact, a biological homosexual may be less culpable than the second person, as his inclination is genetic, while the desire to commit most other sins is socially or environmentally created. The only parallel to homosexuals I can think of, in terms of a genetic inclination to commit a sin, is males who are born with two Y chromosomes. These males tend to be unusually aggressive, which might lead to the possibility of them committing murder or other violent acts. I am not knowledgeable enough about this phenomenon to speak about it with any certainty, but my point is that most people do not face the challenge in abstaining from the negative commandments we have that homosexuals face in abstaining from homosexual activity.
I concede that this argument - that homosexuals are less responsible for their behavior than heterosexuals are for committing other sins - may not hold any water. But at the very least, I think we ought to see the challenge homosexuals face as commensurate to the challenges that heterosexuals face, in that they are all challenges that we work to overcome, with the understanding that we may stumble at times.
(Continued in next post.)
Getting back to the comparison of homosexual activity with other sins, I think there is another very important point. As I said before, I believe many people are so sensitive to the violation of the prohibition of homosexual activity because of the severity of the prohibition. Again, this makes sense. However, there are many other sins in Judaism which are considered very severe. Violation of Shabbat is punishable by death (though not today, of course). Eating on Yom Kippur, violating the laws of niddah, and eating forbidden fats are all punishable by karet. I can state with absolute certainty that there are more Jews - many, many more - who violate some of these prohibitions than there are who engage in homosexual activity. And yet, while there is an uproar over an event at which gay people share their experiences - not even a validation of a homosexual lifestyle, simply a forum for people to talk about the challenge they have faced (more on that later) - I hear nothing, at least in the public discourse of the religious Jewish community, about the Sabbath desecrators, those who eat on Yom Kippur, and those who fail to observe the laws of niddah. Why? Presumably because these mitzvot are Bein Adam LaM
akom. They are G-d's business, not the business of other human beings. The same is true of homosexuality, but one would not know it from the disproportionate amount of attention it receives in the religious Jewish community. This represents sheer hypocrisy. To castigate homosexuals, especially those who are struggling to maintain their religious observance, while ignoring people who willfully violate other serious prohibitions, is absurd. I am not saying that the former are better than the latter. People who violate prohibitions besides that of homosexual activity also must be looked at as individuals, with unique circumstances, and not judged harshly. But to condemn homosexuals - the people and the behavior - while paying little or no attention to violators of other serious prohibitions simply represents a double standard.
Third, and perhaps most importantly, it must be noted that the individuals who spoke at the gay panel at YU did not choose to be homosexual. These are religious people who are struggling to maintain their religious observance. They are not embracing the fact that they are gay, or flaunting it, or expressing their pride of it. What these people are doing - trying to stay religiously observant, despite a seemingly insurmountable challenge, and speaking about their struggles - is both courageous and praiseworthy. Homosexuals are faced not only with the challenge of not acting on their desires, but also of believing in G-d. For a person who is gay to attempt with all his might to suppress his desires and believe in G-d is remarkable, and such a person deserves the unwavering support of the entire Jewish community. It would be easy for gay people to give up, to say, "It's too hard. I'm going to live an alternative lifestyle." I recognize that not all homosexuals make an effort to suppress their desires, that some give in, but I think we cannot judge even those people. We cannot imagine what they experience on a daily, even hourly basis.
To conclude, I want to reiterate that homosexual activity is completely forbidden. I am not in any way condoning, endorsing, or validating it. However, this does not mean that a person who commits a homosexual act is irrevocably wicked, and will not inherit a share in Olam HaBa. Ultimately, we must let G-d, and G-d alone, be the judge of each person, since only G-d knows all of his or her merits, all of his or her sins, and every single factor that influences him or her to act in a certain way.
Jonathan
Dear Jonathan,
Who are you to say who will or won't merit in the World to Come? Kol Yisrael yesh lahem chelek.
Hashem loves Creation. Din is suffused with rachamim.
We just have to play the game.
Dear Anonymous,
That is exactly my point. We cannot know who will or won't merit in the World to Come. I wasn't saying I know who will or won't; rather, only G-d knows.
Jonathan
so... I'm supposed to live my life in suffering, when it is a mitzva to be happy? who are you to decide what is better. I know you touched on that but you dont seem to fully understand yourself. I'm not asking you to celebrate my gay-ness, I dont myself. I am asking to be treated as a human and not to be thought of as a sinner and just tolerated because the same
G-D that made me like this made you like you and and I hate to brake it to you but even if your imperfection isn't as blatant as mine it's still there.
I'm sorry if I sound a little childish but I am a child. I turn 17 soon. And at my age it's the fear of being different that strikes. I'm not dating but somehow I know that the path set out for my friends isn't mine and I realise (after 2 suicide attempts) how hard it will be but Hashem made it a mitzva to be happy in your heart and I will be but in order for that to happen I cant live alone forever in suffering. the halacha was made to be brought down not for us to go up. maybe it's my upbringing in chabad lubavitch speaking but if we were meant to go up to meet the halacha we would be malachim.
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