Tuesday, June 26, 2007

How do you define loyalty?

All right. The majority of you listed loyalty or being loyal as an essential characteristic for a friend. Now I am curious- what does it mean to be loyal?

I don't want a dictionary definition; I'd like, in your own words (with examples or situational evidence as you so choose) a definition of loyalty.

How do you define loyalty? What makes people loyal? And loyal to whom- to you, to a cause, to what?



Mordy said...

And those of us that didn't list loyalty? ;)

Chana said...

Well, you shall just have to occupy your precious selves with other matters! :-)

No, no. You can either a) give an opinion on loyalty or b) proceed to give an entirely unrelated explanation of something else or c) somehow amuse me. Do attempt one of those three.

Irina Tsukerman said...

For me loyalty means

1) standing by friends through thick and thin
2)being dedicated and trustworthy
3) watching out for the friend's beset interests and being helpful and considerate even without being asked for that help

Loyalty to other people may be good evidence that the friend is going to be loyal to you as well. Having strong principles is a different issue. Loyalty to one's country is something I'd expect from every person, not specifically a friend.

Scraps said...

A loyal friend will stand by you in your hour of need. She won't backstab or desert you. A loyal friend is the opposite of a "fair-weather friend", who is friendly only when it is convenient for her.

However, I think that a good friend also won't just stand by you if you're doing something wrong or harmful (to others or to yourself); loyalty, taken to an extreme, can be misplaced. Sometimes a good friend needs to be able to be strong enough to guide you away from doing the wrong thing, even if it's hard. In a way, that can also be a form of loyalty, even if it doesn't necessarily appear so on the surface of things.

Dustfinger said...

Has to be honest, trustworthy, won't go telling other people those secrets you told her to "keep quiet", will stand up for you......blah everyone's already said 'em all.

G said...

b) proceed to give an entirely unrelated explanation of something else or...

Very well.
The Water-Diamond Paradox

The most famous application of marginalism is the solution to the so-called water-diamond paradox, which seemed to stump Adam Smith in his Wealth of Nations.[1] The problem is this: Why do diamonds have a higher exchange value than water, when diamonds are a mere frippery while water is essential to life? Shouldn't people be willing to offer more in exchange for a unit of water than for a unit of diamonds?

The solution, of course, is that no individual is ever in the position of choosing between all of the diamonds in the world and all of the water in the world. A given choice is made on the margin. If offered a choice between a cup of water and a handful of diamonds, most people would pick the latter because the marginal utility of those particular diamonds is higher than the marginal utility of that particular cup of water.

Some economists would describe this situation by saying that diamonds are scarcer than water, because the demand for diamonds relative to their supply is so much higher. Yes, water is more important for human welfare than diamonds, but there is so much water to go around that even if ten trillion gallons were to disappear, no one would care. On the other hand, if only a few pounds of diamonds were to vanish, some people would be very upset.

Anonymous said...

Everything I wanted to say has already been said by Scraps. That's the definition I'd give to 'loyalty', almost to a tee.


Ezzie said...

b) proceed to give an entirely unrelated explanation of something else

Turning developing countries into flourishing ones.

Means & Goals.

Human Rights
Economic Progress

Which are means, which are goals?

The greatest mean is economic progress. Education and governance are important means. Health is nice, but it's not much of a mean; the same is true of environment, culture, and human rights.

Goals-wise, economic progress is not a goal. It is merely a means to other ends. Education and governance are nice, but not big goals... health and the environment are bigger goals; and the greatest goals are culture and human rights.

Comes out looking like this:

Class Mean Goal
HR + +++
EV + ++
GV ++ +
EP +++ 0
ED ++ +
HE + ++
CU + +++

To really help people in "developing" nations, our task should not be to focus on their health - but rather, on building up their markets, then their education to use those markets, to stabilize governments to nurture those markets. This will in turn give them better health, a cleaner environment, and support their human rights and establish their cultures.

Now go watch the amazing videos by Hans Rosling on YouTube. :)

G said...

c) somehow amuse me

Okey, Dokey.



Holy Hyrax said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Holy Hyrax said...

>b) proceed to give an entirely unrelated explanation of something else

Well, when a man and a woman, really love each other, they....

Anonymous said...

Like i said in facebook that loyal and "always be there for someone" is two different things. You could not always be there for them and still be loyal because my defination of loyal is doesn't stab behind someone's back and stand up for them. But "always there for them" is not the defination for loyal. That's something eles. For example, King and thier servants. Not all servants could be there for king if he need them but servants will protects king if something attack to servants order to kill king. That i call Loyal servant to the King.

anonymous mom said...

Example of loyalty: I was lucky enough to make some wonderful, sweet, funny friends in elementary school that have stayed with me through the years. We have all remained close even though we are physically far away. One of us married a very difficult man. We always act very friendly toward the difficult husband because we are close enough to the wife to understand that she will not leave him and that her life will be better if we are still in it. We don't want to alienate him which would alienate us from her. Also, we understand that she has put herself in a bit of a state of denial with regards to her marriage and we don't feel it would be loyal to disrupt that 6 kids into it. There is no physical abuse. We have encouraged her at different points to do what is best for her and on some level she is. We offer help when she chooses to have another child, we offer solace when she is feeling down, and we do not offer judgment about things we know she will not change. I feel that this is loyalty. If she chooses to leave him one day, we will be there in a shot to have her for Shabbos and help set her up. This will probably not happen. We know that she has friends who have not staid in touch with her over the years because they are disappointed and somewhat pained by her choice and her situation. That is not loyalty. On a simpler note, my son thinks everyone is a friend worth having and doesn't notice when he is mistreated. We explained to him that "so and so is a great friend because he stopped me outside of school one day and said to wish you a Refuah Shalaimah when you were sick." Another boy was not so "loyal" because he made fun of the fact that you always try to make up the homework when you are sick. That's not cool. Making fun of you to others even if it is a "joke." We always tell our son that kids can grow and change, but we try to make him aware of how he should be treated and valued by others and how he should treat them. And to apply the above anecdote to adults. My loyal friends and I do not mock each other. We make fun of ourselves to the person we are playfully making fun of. Behind the back mocking or mocking to outsiders in front of insiders is not cool and not loyal.

Erachet said...

I think loyalty means you won't give up on your friends, even after spats and such. You'll stick up for them in their time of need and even help them win their battles. You won't desert them, especially when times are hardest, and you won't be afraid to declare allegiance with them, even when everyone else seems to be putting them down.