Wednesday, January 02, 2008

The Methodological Approach To Learning Gemara

(With thanks to Simcha, to whom I owe this idea)

You may find it helpful to refer to this post, where I inquired as to how various readers of this blog were taught to learn Gemara.


Ideally, the world of Gemara is one that is fascinating. Learning Gemara is a process of discovery for the youth or adult, a fantastic dialogue with those who came before you. One watches the way in which concepts come together, interacting to form a chain or construction that leads you to the next great idea. Thrilled to have understood a particular concept, one continues to move forward, thirsty to learn more, anxious to uncover more hidden secrets or intriguing interrelations.

If this is so, why do so many recoil at the very thought of learning Gemara? What has happened to make Gemara learning tedious, boring or even frustrating for the high school student? It has been suggested to me that a large part of the reason that many find themselves confused, conflicted, frustrated or upset by Gemara is due to the fact that they have never been taught how to approach it properly. They are bereft of tools, allowed only those that their Rabbis have given them in the lower grades. This might have sufficed for purposes of initiation, but surely the student must proceed from there! In the same way that a student who learns Bereishis without any commentaries in first grade proceeds to learn it differently as he grows older, so too must the student of Gemara continue to advance in his technique to approaching the text.

What is the purpose of Gemara nowadays? We no longer seek to codify texts, attempting to arrange them into a halakhic guide. It becomes clear that our purpose is to understand halakhic concepts, comprehend the way in which different ideas break down and fit together. This is not something that can be understood if one's approach is to look at the text, read it over, and then immediately turn to a particular commentary, Rashi for instance. The question becomes- why does Rashi say what he is saying? And while one can struggle to figure out each individual commentary, it makes far more sense to create a logical breakdown of the thought process of the commentaries before proceeding to analyze them.

How does one do this? One employs a methodology. A methodology suggests a way of relating to the text, exploring it within a framework or system. The methodology proposed to me by my friend as the simplest and most logical is that utilized most in Gush, referred to as the Brisker approach, one that makes extensive use of a priori analysis. In order to illustrate the benefits of such an approach, he offered me an example. Consider the topic of Shechita and the question of whether a Non-Jew (or Idolater, one would have to determine whether there is a difference) is able to schecht animals and have them considered kosher.

Now, before we leap to a particular commentary in an attempt to explore the idea, one must break it down. What are possible reasons that a non-Jew's shechita should be considered kosher? Why shouldn't it be considered kosher? My friend began by creating a breakdown, but I would start at an even simpler level. However, to illustrate this most clearly, we will utilize his breakdown:

1. Deficiency
2. Exclusion
3. Antithesis

What do these categories mean? Let's apply them to the concept in question.

1. Deficiency: He, as in the gentile/ idolater/ heathen/ non-Jew has negative kavanah
2. Exclusion: We need Kiddushat Yehudi
3. Antithesis: He creates the anti-Schechted animal, a Korban to Avodah Zarah as opposed to Hashem

Now that we have these three categories and ideas, we can consider how one might argue for and against them based on simple logic. Number 3 does not particularly appeal to me, for instance, because why should every gentile across the board be seen as creating the anti-schechted animal? Oughtn't this to be something judged on a case-by-case basis, an individual level? I can continue with my analysis, positing why something should or should not be, the expected arguments and counter-arguments that will be made on its behalf. After I have come to my own initial conclusions and worked out my thought process of what should happen, that is the proper time to approach the commentaries. Because now the commentaries will make sense! They will fall into place. I will understand why this one posits that a non-Jew's shechitah is acceptable while the other one disagrees. I will comprehend their arguments, because I have already conceptually understood the background to the piece.

In this way, Gemara becomes so much more than memorizing so many assorted, seemingly random shitot. Gemara instead becomes comprehensible, even logical. One must understand what they are learning rather than simply memorizing it, and this becomes a game, a play, a kind of puzzle that fascinates and intrigues, something which encourages you to learn and explore further. People appreciate it when things make sense. And such a methodology can be employed in almost every section, on different levels. It is a way of approaching the text, of interacting with the written words on the page. It does not allow for frustration, for becoming angry over not comprehending ideas. One will comprehend the ideas because one has already analyzed the background to them!

Unfortunately, I am given to understand that this is very rarely the way that people are taught in Shiur, and indeed, not even the way that they learn on their own. This is sad, because it means that people struggle in an attempt to tackle the text when theoretically they would understand far better if they took the time to work through the issues on their own, categorize them and try to think through them, asking questions as they went, before reading someone else's opinion or commentary. It is always worthwhile to do this. Perhaps this approach will improve your learning! I know that in theory, at least, it is the one that most appeals to me.


Ezzie said...

If that were actually Brisker Torah, it would further reinforce why I've never been a fan. :) (To be fair, that's really not it.)

After I have come to my own initial conclusions and worked out my thought process of what should happen, that is the proper time to approach the commentaries. Because now the commentaries will make sense!

AH! I sincerely hope neither you nor your friend mean that. It is the mode of learning material into that which we want the answers to be rather than learning the actual material for what it is that brings us furthest from the truth.

As 'fun' and enjoyable learning Gemara and its meforshim can be, ultimately we learn so as to come to conclusions which we deem to be 'emes'. This requires an approach which focuses on coming to those proper conclusions above all else.

SimchaGross said...

You misunderstood. The a priori thought process does not tell you all the "correct" options but all the viable options. With these concepts already developed it is possible to understand what the Meforshim, Rishonim, Posking are debating. As I am sure you have realized by now, the Meforshim rarely explicitly state the concepts that they are developing and working with. These tools allow you to approach every Sugya with a method and thus always able to grasp the material at hand, even when not clear.
Moreover - would it be so terrible to develop a theory of a Halacha without it being based in the Rishonim? This does not mean that Halachik Nafka Mina's will follow, it simply involves analyzing the material at hand and coming to a reasonable understanding. This is what the Rishonim did themselves. Read through Rav Hirsch's Horeb or the Rambam's Moreh Nevuchim to see that understanding the concept is far more conjectural then you may like.
For example, Chana mentioned that she did not like the concept that every Non-Jew be viewed as the anti-thesis of proper Shchita. Well, the Rambam actually says just that, much to the dismay of all the side commentators there. In a sense, you attempt and many times succeed at intuiting the Rishonim's opinions through the methodology.
To reject the a priori thought process in Gemarah would be to misunderstand what the other approach, namely reading the Rishonim, entails. At some point after reading the Rishon(if of course your goal is to understand the concepts and not just the Halachik Nafka Mina, if the latter then this does not apply, but neither does the post) you must step back and attempt to understand his approach and conceptualization of the Sugya. This is no different. The method allows you to understand how the Rishonim approached the Sugya, and how they potentially could have read it. Only by understanding their thought process can you understand their opinions in the end.

Yosef said...

It seems to me that almost all yeshivos nowadays do use some form of the Brisker methodology.

And although I agree that the Brisker method makes things more interesting, by creating categories in which to place the Rishonim, I often doubt that the Rishonim really thought in those terms at all. If the purpose of our study is to arrive at the "pshat" of the Gemara and the Rishonim, then it may be somewhat problematic to impose our own assumptions on the Rishonim. I don't know if they ever thought in Brisker terms.

G said...

Yosef +1

Elster said...

As fascinating as the debate between the Brisker approach vs other approaches might be, I disagree with a more fundamental argument set forth here; namely that any type of approach would actually make the Gemara very palatable for a large majority.

Chana, your theory presupposes that most people have the tools to use a specific approach when they are "learning on their own" or even in a shiur. This is untrue for a few reasons:

1. Gemara is difficult enough textually before you factor in Rishonim and Acharonim - not everyone has the ability to slap open Rashi, Tosafos, Rashba, etc and understand what they are reading - simply on a translation level, forgeting even about the arguments being set forth. Artscroll solved this dilema for Gemara text itself, but not for the commentaries.

2. You presuppose that people have the background knowledge to make the a priori analytic breakdown - "Why WOULD a non-jew be no good as a shochet? Hmmm, I dunno. Next Sugya!"

3. The back and forth of the Gemara, the ideas brought up and dismissed, are not always easy to follow. Not everyone has the author of this posts' intellectual capacity (- and I say that in all seriousness, not tongue in cheek). Understanding Gemara is very, very difficult for many people - and THAT'S what saps the joy out of it.

4. There are many approaches out there for teaching and learning Gemara. It's impossible to make the blanket statement that one is better for everyone - the same way you don't like the idea that every Goy shouldn't be a shochet because he's making a korban to a false god - case by case basis - the case by case basis needs be used here as well.

BUT one most also understand that there are external factors which make the process of learning Gemara tedious and joyless for certain people.

dd said...

in this approach you are limited to whatever methods you think make sense without seeing the whole sugyah.
If you went into reading the rishonim (and achronim gasp!) you see the approaches they take many of which you never would have thought of.
We shouldnt be tailoring the gemorah to our brain we should be tailoring our brain to the gemorah

SimchaGross said...

I believe Chana's point was that figuring out what Rishonim and the Gemarah is practically saying is not our goal when learning Gemarah. As you yourself say "It seems to me that almost all yeshivos nowadays do use some form of the Brisker methodology", meaning they do not attempt to practically understand the Rishonim. And if they didn't think in such concepts does that mean that we cannot? Who said that religious thought died with Rishonim (sadly I do know people who believe this...)? Moreover, it is difficult to say that they did not think in such a way. How do you explain the constant divergences in opinions? Is it completely arbitrary? I sure hope not. When two Rishonim are confronting a "Stira" between Sugya's, why would one choose in favor of X and one in favor of Y? I would hope it is because of a concept and not simply arbitrary. If it was arbitrary then we would have to reconsider how bound we are to their conclusions.

The approach and tools are of course difficult for everyone to obtain, there is no doubting that. But then again there are certain aspects of it which anyone can learn. Take Chana's example, she encountered a "Halachik rejection", someone who is unable to do something. There are 3 ways you can always look at such a thing, which is what Chana showed. Similarly, when a reason is given in the Gemarah for a rule, you must immediately ask Siman vs. Siba, or is this a correlation of causation. When you say that a Sukkah needs to be nicer, you must immediately ask Cheftza vs. Gavra, is that to enhance the nicety of the Sukkah or to demonstrate the persons affection and zeal for Gods commandments. There are rules to work with, which you must simply memorize. True, to advance to the higher levels and to "break you" from the basic questions requires greater abilities. But to do the basics does not.

dd said...

Furthermore arent u limiting the gemorah reshonim to your limited understanding when they are clearly much greater and have a greater understanding of the gemorah and torah and wouldnt it make sense to see what those of us who are greater than use say before deciding what makes sense to say and what doesnt make sense

Yair said...

In highschool, I learned in a pilpul-oriented shiur. We would go through the gemarah (aided by certain Rishonim) once or twice, but only in ‘Seder’, with our chavrusos. Then, during shiur, we would mostly focus on Achronim. It all basically boiled down believing that there are intricate reasons behind every question and answer, and it would therefore bode well to explain why this question was asked, why this answer was answered, etc.

I now learn in a shiur which stresses Mechkar (or more correctly, Mekhqar). ‘Mechkar’ literally means ‘research’, or ‘investigation’, and it’s an ‘academic’ approach to the Gemara, for lack of a better word. This entails heavy concentration on texts, awareness of realia (then and now), scrutinization of sources, etc. Emphasis is placed on other resources, such as the Yerushalmi, Tosefta, different manuscripts of the Bavli (i.e. from Paris, Munich, etc) and the construction of the text itself (what part of the gemara is the ‘stam’, a statement by an amora, a quote an amora attributes to a tanna, a word or two that may very well have been added later on by Savoraim/Ge’onim, etc).

Mechkar has attracted some criticism from outsiders. I believe it’s the majority of ‘Olam HaYeshivot’ who do not agree with this approach to learning, saying it: a) undermines the divinity of the Gemara b) makes learning Gemara very dry and academic.

While I can definitely understand the opinion of people who think it’s dry (for the record, I do not), the first issue is ludicrous. Never has the holiness of the Gemara been debated within Orthodox Mechkar shiurim. I think it’s the concept of the academic research involved in the gemara which makes them think its sanctity is being compromised, and afraid to deal with the issues Mechkar brings up. After completing a dissection of the gemara (as described above) its beauty is enhanced, not diminished.

I don’t have much to say about the Brisker approach. I think it’s very effective when put to use properly, and provides deep analytical insight within gemara. Personally, I’d like to see these two different analytical approaches – Mechkar and Shitat Brisk - somehow unified.

Observer said...


The problem is that the ultimate goal of gemara is to find the truth, the ems, the pshat that the Tanaim/Amoraim/Meforshim are trying to bring down. Yes, analyzing and viewing all possible situations is a good start, but finding every possible permutation and nafka mina, even though it might be true, sometimes strays from the truth a little too much. One needs to have the right "feel" for the gemarah to know which pshatim make sense. For most people, this takes many years, not two years in Israel + a few more in the states. Someone once came to R' Moshe with a totally new pshat in a gemara, and it theoretically "worked," and R' Moshe didn't have any counter-proofs at the moment, but he nixed it because it just didn't feel emesdik (I know how much you love Gedolim stories from the DTP blog).
Waiting for your reply...

SimchaGross said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
SimchaGross said...

Here is an interesting quote from Rav Hirsch's 19 Letters:
"...We must take into account the unique characteristics of the sources: they are opposed, as a matter of principle, to transmission of the law in writing, and thus they spell out only specific particulars for practical application, leaving the underlying general concepts, the spirit, to word-of-mouth transmission and to the individual's personal efforts at analysis".
Here Rav Hirsch recognizes what anyone would from a peripheral glance at Gemarah and for that matter Rishonim and Poskim - that these figures' conceptual reasoning is very rarely stated explicitly.

Of course we are looking for Emet. But by Emet you mean, in our case, a concept that properly explains the nature of the Mitzvah or topic at hand. But how can anyone do this properly, when Chazal and the Rishonim do not say state it explicitly? Moreover, are the interpretations all set in stone? I am truly asking, I do not know the answer. I would like to believe that new interpretations are available to understand the concepts. There is a fascinating article by Marc Shapiro on this topic which appeared in traditions a few years ago. In it he discusses Rav Chaims approach and how it was against the Rambam. Yes, i said against. There were some 20 laws in Yad Chazaka (Mishnah Torah, whatever you prefer) that nearly every Acharon for centuries took a stab at to attempt to explain and harmonize it with the Gemarah and other such sources. Rav Chaim had some of his most famous and innovative pieces on them as well. The Cairo Geniza was discovered, and in it so were the Rambam's Responsa. In them, many of these questions came up, with the Rambam responding - oops, thats a Taut Sofer, or Oops my bad. In fact, last night I was shown a photocopy of an actual Rambam Ktav Yad. Let's just say he was amazingly sloppy. He wrote in the margins, slashed out words right and left. Yet Rav Chaim responded that he wasn't interested, that his approach made sense nonetheless. The Sridey Eish had a similar comment, explaining that, though Rav Chaim's ideas are true concepts, he nevertheless erroneously transposes them on the Rambam. Meaning, the concepts may be true even though Rishonim didn't say them. The Rashbam has a comment on Genesis 37:2 where he says that Rashi, his grandfather, intended on rewriting his Peirush because "הפשטות המתחדשים בכל יום", the renewing Pshat that comes day by day. In other words, all these figures realized that the ideas in Torah are not ossified, but rather Judaism and its concepts are constantly growing. Rav Kook believed in this from a Hegelian perspective, that G-d is the G-d of history, and the world is moving towards a greater goal at all points in time (Heschel agrees). So I do agree with you that you should try to get the Emet, but who says that is found in the past, and not in the present or future?

Ezzie said...

I'm too lazy to respond to every point, Simcha, but your last line pretty much sums up why it's a plausible but not preferable approach.

So I do agree with you that you should try to get the Emet, but who says that is found in the past, and not in the present or future?

The question really is, which is more likely? I'm putting my money on the Rishonim first. It doesn't mean we can't then try to come up with different pshatim and ideas (that's how I was taught to learn) outside of that; it just means that it makes more sense - in a search for emes - to start with what's actually there, not with what we want to get to due to our own biases.

SimchaGross said...

I am not sure what you are referring to. As I pointed out, the "Emet" of concepts are not contained explicitly in Chazal or Rishonim, and the Rav Hirsch quote explained that this was consciously done by our ancestors. So again, the question isn't simply - do we take their concepts or ours, but rather, how do we uncover these concepts in the first place? Rav Chaim and the Sridey Eish, from the examples I quoted, both seem to believe that even if the Rishon disagrees our concept is valid! So I think you are overly simplifying it when you say "ill stick with the Rishonim" - there is nothing to stick with. You must venture to interpret the specific Dinim and Halachot they have and try to create a concept from there. But then you encounter the next question: what if the Rishon didn't mean it? The questions never end, you never have a legitimate approach. Unless... unless you are willing to say that the concepts are legitimate, within a certain context of course (I could explain what I mean by context at a later point if you would like), even if they are not what the Rishonim meant. I know that I for one would at least be hesitant to offer an approach that i knew was contrary to the Rishonim... but the Sridey Eish and Rav Chaim were not bothered by this. Something to think about...

Drew_Kaplan said...

Sort of an addition to Yair's comment, the methodology that has been tremendously valuable has been that of noting who is saying what and when these statements occurred (cf. the "Revadim" method), as otherwise, the Talmud could seem to some as boring on account of seeing a page of Talmud as being various different statements, discussions, etc. in a sort of hodge-podge way. By using this more historical methodology, the student is may have a better sense of what's going on with the text.

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...


All I can say after reading your article is WHAT THE F--K?! If, by chance, you missed that, I will repeat it; WHAT THE F--K?! I hope the message got through by now. A 19 year old girl is writing this stuff?! Now, I admit, I've met some pretty intelligent 19 year old girls as it happens, but you guys are REAL exceptions...

I thought that was a very truthful, eloquently written, and informative article.
Anywho, I just wanted to mention that between the ages of 18-22 I've studied in many different yeshivas in Israel and America, seeing what they have to offer. Now, I've still never found the yeshiva of my dreams (I have found the 'magid shiur' of my dreams though, Barry Klein in the Mir. I don't know if he accepts girls though...), but one of the most interesting yeshivas I've been to was the last one; bircas hatorah in the old city. There they were just OBSESSED with the proper Talmudic methodology (I loved it because I was used to the 'livish' approach you were discussing (i.e. not fully or properly understanding anything)).

There, we had two main approaches to 'learning'; a modern reformulation of the rosh yeshiva, of the Ramchals’ 'The Ways of Reason' (which itself is a modern reformulation of the greek study of logic).(We leaned a little more towards the Greek style, and utilized 'syllogisms' as formulas to break down the information, and properly 'solve the problem' as it were). We used that combined with the teachings of the traditional 'talmudic approach' books written by medieval Spanish Jewish scholars (like shmuel hanagid, yitzchak kanfanton, malachi hakohen etc.).

You can check out for a little more information. I'm also working on a wikipedia article about the rosh yeshiva 'shimon green' (you could check it out, but don't laugh..).

I also wanted to add that I see the layout of the page of the gemara a big issue. They’re so sparring with their words, and on the page it loks like they’re just talking this jumbled jargon forever. I’m interested in actually prited a version of the gemara with a different layout (if you want to see some, I got some examples)…

And don't listen to that 'ezzie' guy, he's "one of them", the 'litvish' have a TOTALLY whacked out approach to gemara.


G said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
G said...

And don't listen to that 'ezzie' guy, he's "one of them"
**round of applause**
Finally! A kindred spirit.

SimchaGross said...

Yair and Drew,
Can you guys explain the goal of the approach a little bit more? This is not an attack, I simply do not really understand what Mechkar is supposed to bring you too. I understand the method, but what is the goal? In the Brisker Derech the goal is to conceptualize a certain law or rule, what is the goal for Mechkar. Very interested to hear your response.

Ezzie said...

As I pointed out, the "Emet" of concepts are not contained explicitly in Chazal or Rishonim


So again, the question isn't simply - do we take their concepts or ours,

I don't think that's the question at all.

how do we uncover these concepts in the first place?

Which concepts?

even if the Rishon disagrees our concept is valid!


So I think you are overly simplifying it when you say "ill stick with the Rishonim" - there is nothing to stick with.

I said no such thing. I said: "I'm putting my money on the Rishonim first."

You must venture to interpret the specific Dinim and Halachot they have and try to create a concept from there.

Well, only if you're extending the halacha or din to a scope they didn't discuss. Most of the time their intention was clear, and therefore the concept is clear. There are some instances where it is not, but regardless, it would still make sense to start with them as your basis if you are trying to get to Emes.

But then you encounter the next question: what if the Rishon didn't mean it?

What does that even mean!?

Unless... unless you are willing to say that the concepts are legitimate, within a certain context of course

Sounds reasonable.

(I could explain what I mean by context at a later point if you would like)

Would be helpful. :)

I know that I for one would at least be hesitant to offer an approach that i knew was contrary to the Rishonim...

As long as you're going for Emes, and you have a legitimate enough issue with the Rishon's approach to be offering the alternative approach, why be hesitant? Of course, one must check their biases at the door and try and approach their own idea critically, and perhaps especially so in light of an opposing Rishon... but that's just intellectual honesty. :)

Ezzie said...

G - :P Your father isn't a Litvak?

M.R. said...

Check out which sounds like something you would like.

me said...

I have a few notebooks of my learning in bava metzia. If you are interested I could e mail to you some of them. It starts with what seems to me to an unanswerable question on tosfot. But anyway i think this method is related to far rockaway where i learnt not to walk into the gemara with any assumptions or derachim. Any yesodot or chakirot were considered traif since they were reading things into it that were not there.

I also posted on my blog a post containing some of the gemara learning
it is

me said...

here is a direcct link to my gemara notebook
if you like i could post more

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I purchased the [url=]Huawei E5830 3G WiFi Router AP (WCDMA/HSUPA/HSDPA/UMT/EDGE/GPRS/GSM)[/url] from, in the Networking classification, underneath my new zealand mate's commendation, and I believe he gets points or commission from my purchase, since he's a affiliate. The router AP is tremendously small, lightweight and convenient. So these days I can weld to wifi anywhere with mp iPad! I no longer need to go over high-pitched and not up to par for a wifi AP at cafes etc. Nor pay out so much of my notes on caffeine overdose at Starbucks and other cafes. Into the bargain, the 3G Wifi Router AP supports graceful much all the bandwidths -- GPRS,GSM,WCDMA,HSUPA,HSDPA,UMT,EDGE. Take off a look at pictures I've uploaded of the Huawei 3G WiFi router that has made my effervescence so much easier, and is promoting a healthier caffeine-free lifestyle. It proves that a geek lifestyle does not unavoidably bear to undertake manual labourer in keeping with coffee.

And to over recall I was considering paying supplement to upgrade to the iPad that supports 3G! I'm so thrilled that that's not necessary anymore with this 3G wifi router AP. I can honest weld to the internet wherever I am with the Huawei 3G Wifi Router, as extensive as there is signal. This is not a technology gadget per se, but it has certainly made my lifetime plainly more effectual! Moreover, I'm able to bail someone out my shekels that I would mostly throw away on Starbucks, McCafe, and other cafes with wifi! Which, by the conduct, makes me query whether it's a ploy at near Steve Jobs, to have launched the 3G iPad interpretation no greater than much later, so that wifi cafes can enjoy piles of firm from iPad wifi version. But I digress.

The 3G WiFi router AP I bought from [url=][/url] would unquestionably also be skilled to let me download and caper approximately with my apps on my iTouch, admitting that I haven't tried it yet. Shouldn't be a refractory I should think. This $100+ may be the superb hard cash I've spurt since it enables me to suffer with a sort of WiFi nucleus wherever I am. If I was more entrepreneurial, I can fifty-fifty start charging other geeks at cafes without WiFi for the benefit of oblation access to them. I'm unwavering I can without doubt draw go the $100 this approach! Alternatively, dialect mayhap I can start being an affiliate of too, since I'm starting to allow more gadgets and tools there, and take been spreading suggestion vibrant to my family and friends. Moreover, Christmas is coming in less than 2 months' continually, and I characterize as this Huawei 3G WiFi router would present a gorgeous cumshaw for many of my tech geek friends. I'm sure they'll also rise how trim and bold the router looks!