tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post8508302377589717887..comments2024-03-18T03:40:39.185-04:00Comments on The Curious Jew: Poetic Justice in the Deaths of Avner and Amassa?Chanahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-43824332925134012182013-05-17T08:24:10.033-04:002013-05-17T08:24:10.033-04:00This post has been including in Shiloh Musings: Je...This post has been including in <a href="http://shilohmusings.blogspot.co.il/2013/05/jewish-blog-round-up-lets-link-up.html" rel="nofollow">Shiloh Musings: Jewish Blog Round Up, Let's Link Up Together</a>. If you haven't read my "roundup" yet, then please click, check out the other links, comment and share, thanks.Batyahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09402874037427009327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-34798401853248331112013-05-07T15:08:22.461-04:002013-05-07T15:08:22.461-04:00I found the following here on Lookstein.org, writt...I found the following <a href="http://www.lookstein.org/resources/whenmustsoldiers.htm" rel="nofollow">here</a> on Lookstein.org, written by Dr. Moshe Sokolow.<br /><br />-<br />Avner and Amasa, ironically, play a critical role themselves in the derivation of the halakhic principles of obedience.<br /> <br />In 1 Shemuel 22:17, Shaul commands his servants to kill the kohanim of Nov because they had aided and abetted David in his escape. The soldiers refuse to shed the blood of “servants of the LORD,” so Shaul turns the task over to Doeg the Edomi who has no such compunctions and kills them.<br /> <br />The Yerushalmi (Sanhedrin 29a) asks:<br />Who were those servants [who refused the order]? Rav Shemuel ben Yitzhak said: They were Avner and Amasa. They said to Shaul, If we owe you anything besides these belts and coats (their military insignia?), take them back!<br /> <br />The Bavli (Sanhedrin 20a), however, has certain reservations about their conduct:<br />Rav Yehudah said in Rav’s name: Why did Avner meet an untimely death? Because he failed to take a stand against Shaul. Rav Yitzhak said: He took a stand, but he was overruled.<br /> <br />Elaboration:<br /> <br />Avner’s death at the hands of Yoav is his just desserts for his failure to assume a more vigorous opposition to the murder of the kohanim of Nov. This provides us with our second important insight into the halakhot of obedience: It may not be sufficient to abstain from obeying an illegal order; you might have to offer more than your resignation.<br /> <br />[Indeed, the Gemara (Shabbat 55a), in elaborating on Yehezkel 9:4 (“Go through the streets of Yerushalayim and place a mark on the foreheads of all who sigh and groan over the abominations committed in her”), makes the point that it is not enough to refrain from committing evil when one can also take a strong stand against it.]Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-86767680032973685302013-05-07T14:56:19.117-04:002013-05-07T14:56:19.117-04:00Thanks, Jake. Will do. I looked up the full contex...Thanks, Jake. Will do. I looked up the full context of that passage and see that one Rabbi holds that Avner did not protest at all and the other holds he did protest. But what I'm confused by is the meaning of protest. Does "protest" refer only to a verbal protest, or would it have to be stronger than that (that he would have to actively try to kill Doeg/ try to protect the Kohanim?) I will go try to look it up.Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-85161480095382496062013-05-07T13:04:59.922-04:002013-05-07T13:04:59.922-04:00Talmud Bavli Sanhedrin 20a:
אמר רב יהודה אמר רב מ...Talmud Bavli Sanhedrin 20a:<br /><br />אמר רב יהודה אמר רב מפני מה נענש אבנר מפני שהיה לו למחות בשאול ולא מיחה<br /><br />Rashi:<br /><br />למחות בשאול. בהריגת נוב עיר הכהנים<br /><br />Perhaps look for commentaries on this gemara that might discuss the connection.jakenoreply@blogger.com