tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post799571872826114317..comments2024-03-18T03:40:39.185-04:00Comments on The Curious Jew: R' Mayer Twersky's Response to 'Being Gay in the Orthodox World'Chanahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-86064158853658074032013-01-09T20:13:51.194-05:002013-01-09T20:13:51.194-05:00Very great post. I simply stumbled upon your blog ...Very great post. I simply stumbled upon your blog and wished<br />to mention that I've really enjoyed browsing your blog posts.<br />___<br /><a href="http://www.ironcomet.com/Medisoft/" rel="nofollow">Medisoft </a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-73545372398234537582011-08-07T14:57:39.650-04:002011-08-07T14:57:39.650-04:00buy facebook likes
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Blah blah blah Rabbi Twersky.<br /><br />Isn't there a Talmudic story about someone declaring non-kosher chicken kosher in order to aid a poor widow? <br /><br />Isn't there some ruling or another about annulling a halacha if no one follows the ruling?<br /><br />I even remember something about siding with Hillel over Shammai, too.<br /><br />And didn't Rashi overthrow a lot of laws that made daily life miserable for Jews?<br /><br />(Vague memories. Sorry.)<br /><br />My rabbi tells me that the Torah prohibits anal intercourse between men - no more and no less. There is no prohibition on loving another man, kissing him, sleeping with him or cooking breakfast for him ... as long as you don't do it wearing woman's clothes. Not in public, at any rate.<br /><br />My rabbi tells me that certain ACTIONS between men are prohibited - not feelings. The only feeling that is prohibited is the one you have for your neighbor's wife or donkey or Mazda MX-5 Miata.<br /><br />He also tells me that the idea of "homosexuals" as a class of people is a recent invention. And thus not discussed in any code of law until very very recently.<br /><br />Is my rabbi wrong?Eliezer Pennywhistlernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-56867046469679406082010-01-02T20:12:40.866-05:002010-01-02T20:12:40.866-05:00Alex, I think you, in turn, missed Rav Twersky'...Alex, I think you, in turn, missed Rav Twersky's point.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-80068421909759425872010-01-02T19:34:14.464-05:002010-01-02T19:34:14.464-05:00A Non- Facebook link (open to all) to Levovitz'...A Non- Facebook link (open to all) to Levovitz's point-by point rebuttal of Rabbi Twersky can be found on:<br /><br />http://www.syaross.org/misc/gaypanel/response.html<br /><br />definitely worth a read (albeit its a sit-down)kuch-leffelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14564798116894186061noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-20892422815626619922009-12-31T10:32:57.183-05:002009-12-31T10:32:57.183-05:00It's strange. The first phrase that came to mi...It's strange. The first phrase that came to mind after reading this is, "Moral Relativism." R'Mayer Twersky shows no interest in searching for the truth or struggling with what may or may not be true.<br /><br />He says that the mere act of calling people "wired that way" creates an attitude that is accommodating to To'evah. Thus, he strongly implies that we shouldn't say that or present it as an accepted point of view. It doesn't matter to him whether it is true or not. It only matters that, if it were true, he can't think of an appropriate halachic response therefore we shouldn't talk about it.<br /><br />While it might be obvious where my sympathies lie, the issue really isn't whether people who are gay are or aren't "wired that way." It the stubborn refusal to even consider the discussion. The comparison of decades of research on homosexuality saying people are "wired that way" to a lustful individual saying he's "wired that way" is trivializing and beneath such a scholar.<br /><br />His entreaty to not talk about the category of "gay Jews" is simple homophobia. In this case, I'm using the literal meaning of phobia as fear, not hatred. There are categories of Jews. There are male jews, female jews, married jews, jewish children, jews struggling with addiction, jews with schizophrenia, etc. There are categories. There were also always gay Jews. They might not have been as public. More might have left Judaism or commit suicide in the past, but they always existed. The fear to accept that such a category exist is the fear that he doesn't know how to interact with that category. It has nothing to do with what may or may not be reality.ddnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-11989932941476580722009-12-31T07:54:43.933-05:002009-12-31T07:54:43.933-05:00The Rabbis missed the point. The point of the for...The Rabbis missed the point. The point of the forum was to educate Orthodox Jews that Homosexuality was qualitatively and substantially different from coveting your neighbor wife. How stupid an analogy is that? Support groups for wanna be adulterers? There is almost no point in continuing to read or learn what these Rabbis have to say about the issue when they can so simply negate the very nature of my being and erase any potential for happiness and acceptance. Shame shame on them.alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03612321930953664020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-89992474906594873132009-12-31T07:47:26.920-05:002009-12-31T07:47:26.920-05:00NEW: Point by point, critique, response and rebutt...NEW: Point by point, critique, response and rebuttal of Rav Twersky's speech. (by one of the YU panel members)<br /><br />see link:<br /><br />http://www.facebook.com/note.php?created&&suggest&note_id=251912628922#/notes/zac-mordechai-levovitz/point-by-point-critique-response-and-rebuttal-of-rav-twerskys-speech-by-one-of-t/251912628922Mordechai Levovitznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-72849826409076998262009-12-31T00:40:27.256-05:002009-12-31T00:40:27.256-05:00I don't know whether homosexuality is "ha...I don't know whether homosexuality is "hard-wired" or even what that would mean in a scientific sense. But I do know that despite decades of research, there remains nothing in the way of a treatment for someone who is Gay and wants not to be. <br /><br />I think that this is the single biggest hashkafic challenge facing traditional Judaism. I'm very glad HaShem made me straight.Charlie Hallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17667135360784254574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-25739153402519079572009-12-30T23:06:34.238-05:002009-12-30T23:06:34.238-05:00Regarding the first comment, I believe when R Twer...Regarding the first comment, I believe when R Twersky said "of which there is a big debate in the mental health community, although one only hears one side of that debate on the street" that is in reference to Proposition Number 1 I think after saying "Proposition Number 2" he went back to add an addendum to Proposition Number 1, hence why after this quote he repeated the line "Proposition Number 2"<br /><br />If I am correct, he was saying that the degree of hard-wiredness, or the irreversible nature of homosexuality is not as one sided as it is often presented to be. {I don't think that line was meant to imply that it is always changeable. Just that its a debate in the Mental Health community, at least regarding a certain percentage of such individuals}.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-8054996056866993332009-12-30T18:45:45.904-05:002009-12-30T18:45:45.904-05:00I think one thing that hasn't been mentioned t...I think one thing that hasn't been mentioned thus far is that R' Twersky's argument seems to be a very poor one, on logical and factual grounds.<br /><br />R' Twersky asks, "What if someone will come and ask us for a forum for someone who has a tremendous lust for his neighbor’s wife, not that chas v’shalom that he has acted on it, and hopes he won’t act on it, but he has a tremendous lust for his neighbor’s wife." But this seems quite unlike the case of gay students having a forum. Have adulterers been the subjects of hate crimes? Have adulterers been killed for the way they were born? What is the suicide rate amongst these adulterers? Is the suicide rate higher among adulterers, such that there is value in extending open arms, in public, to them? Gay Americans have been killed because of the way they're wired, and there is a higher rate of depression and suicide among gay teens than adultering men. The need for a forum comes from the problem of tortured young men and women who feel like their life is over before it's even started. And so R' Twersky is wrong when he says "there are ways of educating the public without creating a category of a “gay Jew” – even if with all the insistence, of not acting but just the inclination, what one professes to be orientation." If your goal is to help the gay students, then you have to be public about it.<br /><br />He writes, "There is a Yiddish saying – a descriptive statement – the way it goes with the non-Jews it goes with the Jews." So we should be against legislation supporting gay marriage because it could influence the Jewish community. But this is odd, because the Jewish community has done a fine job keeping kashrus, negiah, tzedakah and many other specifically Jewish laws despite the fact that it goes beyond American law. To blame this on American law seems to be a cop out, and a completely separate issue.<br /><br />Further, it's very interesting what R' Twersky thinks about the current state of psychology of homosexuality, but it would be far more interesting to see what those who study the psychology of homosexuality have to say about it. And it would help his case if he had cited any evidence, instead of vague reference to "a big debate in the mental health community."<br /><br />This argument is also curious: "What’s wrong with that combination of propositions? No matter how many times you repeat the mantra that Halacha isn’t negotiable, isn’t relativistic, the real message that is broadcast – that if one is hopelessly wired, and this represents a heroic, herculean struggle, my respect knows no bounds for someone who struggles with this. We don’t hold ourselves to heroic standards."<br /><br />I was taught, as a matter of course in my yeshivot, that though halacha sometimes requires Jews to make the ultimate sacrifice al pi kiddush hashem, it is a heroic standard and we can't blame those who, in the face of death in the darkest of times, opted not to die for kiddush Hashem. Why is the idea that halacha can be so hard, sometimes, that it requires heroic courage, so dangerous? All it brings is respect, not a respect for aveirah but a respect for the sinners, and that's OK. A respect for sinners is what I was taught regarding those who failed to die al pi kiddush Hashem, and I don't see why that's any less dangerous than those who fail to live up to the prohibition against homosexuality.<br /><br />Regarding the first point, that toevah is a shocking word: it's not that shocking, actually. The gemara tells us what it means, and the rishonim tell us what the gemara means. In Nedarim 51a it says that toevah means "Toeh ata bah" in this context, and the Ran and Rashi both say that it's because a man who lies with another man it leaving behind sex with a woman and instead having sex with a man. That's all it means in this context according to the gemara in Nedarim--nothing shocking, just describing the act.Michael Pnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-1774652913111526292009-12-30T17:43:12.719-05:002009-12-30T17:43:12.719-05:00Anonymous KT - as someone who was at the schmooze ...Anonymous KT - as someone who was at the schmooze - R' Twersky does not accept the hard-wired idea - he was stating these propositions as the things that people believe and are objectionable.Shades of Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02733139852424935591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-82936686578539454162009-12-30T10:11:20.267-05:002009-12-30T10:11:20.267-05:00oops-got cut off-the rest was:
would you have bene...oops-got cut off-the rest was:<br />would you have benefited from some direction as to how to channel that drive within the system?<br />KT<br />Joel RichAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-87232094645483297732009-12-30T10:09:44.184-05:002009-12-30T10:09:44.184-05:00Chana,
I seem to recall that as a high school (or ...Chana,<br />I seem to recall that as a high school (or earlier) student, you did not appreciate being told to "stay in the closet" with your questions regarding hashkafa etc. for the good of the other students who were not as curious/gifted as you. <br />KT<br />Joel RichAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-38629026897458378472009-12-30T09:06:52.463-05:002009-12-30T09:06:52.463-05:00Excellent analogy. Twersky is like Moses, who kil...Excellent analogy. Twersky is like Moses, who killed the idol worshipers in the name of God. <br /><br />Just one thing I don't get. Why use an analogy that's so old? Why not go for something a little more recent. You could have used the nine eleven hijackers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-31467259348617527972009-12-30T08:19:07.237-05:002009-12-30T08:19:07.237-05:00I don't think they'll be providing that an...I don't think they'll be providing that answer. It seems that, based on their shitah that such issues - and certainly how an individual struggling with such issues should channel those inclinations - should be dealt with in private in consultation with their closest friends, family and rabbeim, they will not answer that question in public (though I agree with you and think they should, so as to provide an appropriate formula of how to address it, presuming that last Tuesday night's even was inappropriate).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-47939026058754686532009-12-30T05:34:42.755-05:002009-12-30T05:34:42.755-05:00One, homosexuals are wired that way, something tha...One, homosexuals are wired that way, something that is hopelessly irreversible, they are wired that way. Proposition number two of which there is a big debate in the mental health community, although one only hears one side of that debate on the street proposition number two – in addition to being hopelessly wired that way, this represents a unique, sui generous, herculean, heroic struggle to conform to what to the Torah says, V'Es Zachar Lo Sishkav Mishkevei Ishah To'evah Hee. <br />===================<br />what exactly is the debate? Whether there are other struggles that are just as difficult? R'MT seems to accept the hard wiring proposition. then how does <br /><br />" The message is – despite my mantra that halacha isn’t negotiable, under the guise of sympathy, the message is – rachmana l’tzlan, the Torah’s halacha isn’t really real for you." follow? from hkb"h's hard wiring? who is sending that message or who is reading it? <br /><br />I can understand a meta argument that in our generation we need to draw a line in public, but i certainly don't understand the apparent "slam dunk" nature of the view expressed. I suppose a risk/reward analysis was done and that is the R"Y shikul hadaat but given the talmud's directive that inborn inclinations be channeled, <br />I'd more appreciate some public direction from the R"Y on how these individuals should channel (other than just suffer in private and seek help which hasn't worked for others)<br /><br />KTAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com