tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post5379363629472450651..comments2024-03-18T03:40:39.185-04:00Comments on The Curious Jew: Tisha B'AvChanahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-68789695977763000372007-07-27T14:39:00.000-04:002007-07-27T14:39:00.000-04:00I think the "bubbling blood" one was actually one ...I think the "bubbling blood" one was actually one of the hardest for me, because (1) my rabbi (and Artscroll) treats these legends so literally that they are a bit hard to take as the parables they were no doubt meant to be, and (2) the underlying idea that one murder 250 years ago justifies massacres makes Osama bin Laden look like Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm. <BR/><BR/>This sort of thing is why I'm uncomfortable with, if not Orthodoxy, at least the Artscroll kind of Orthodoxy- the utter lack of selectivity in distinguishing parts of the tradition that can be accepted whole and the kinds that really need an explanation if they are to be used at all (e.g. "Not to be taken literally or used with heavy machinery").Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-2093569841823961922007-07-20T18:52:00.000-04:002007-07-20T18:52:00.000-04:00Well, for what it's worth, I'll tell you what my p...Well, for what it's worth, I'll tell you what <I>my</I> plan is for the morning of Tisha b'Av: as soon as the shul starts saying kinnos, I'm going to turn on my iPod, pop in my ear-buds, and listen to a few hours of shiurim from my Rebbi (and from the Rav) on kinnos, reciting each kinnah discussed both before and afterwards. It's better to get through two or three kinnos with understanding and emotion than two or three dozen with boredom and guilt.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17762099779174385763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-12816320995287933982007-07-20T17:08:00.000-04:002007-07-20T17:08:00.000-04:00I also love "V'hinei kachomer biyad hayotzer." I ...I also <I>love</I> "V'hinei kachomer biyad hayotzer." I remember that when I was eleven or twelve, it was just about the only part of the service that really, really moved me, and I kept on flipping back to it to read it over and over again.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-71756781626115529822007-07-20T17:04:00.000-04:002007-07-20T17:04:00.000-04:00Wow. Great post, Chana.And I agree with everyone e...Wow. Great post, Chana.<BR/><BR/>And I agree with everyone else here. As we are taught in hilchos tefillah: It's better to say some tefillah with a little kavanah than a lot of tefillah with no kavanah. The same applies here. Yasher kochech on giving us this new insight into the kinnos. May we be zoche to see no more sad Tisha b'Avs.Rebeccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04466262450322664150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-20658952687853033182007-07-20T12:38:00.000-04:002007-07-20T12:38:00.000-04:00Sounds VERY similiar to what my Tisha B'Av is like...Sounds VERY similiar to what my Tisha B'Av is like (actually, eerily so).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-57923788014726422922007-07-20T12:00:00.000-04:002007-07-20T12:00:00.000-04:00Chana,I don't think you are "not a very good Jew" ...Chana,<BR/><BR/>I don't think you are "not a very good Jew" for not being to respond to all of the kinnot the same way. It is human nature to respond to some things more than others. With a communally-orientated religion like Judaism, there is always a degree of friction between what the community as a whole finds meaningful, and what each individual member finds meaningful. This can often be painful (I'm talking from personal experience), but it is unavoidable.<BR/><BR/>My way of getting through very long services (it also applies to Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur) is to concentrate hard on (a) essential prayers (shema, amidah etc.) (b) parts that are meaningful to me. During the parts that are less meaningful to me, I sometimes sit/stand for a few minutes quietly, reflecting on the meaning of the day and letting the atmosphere in shul move me emotionally, or I read things like the commentary in the Artscroll, things that will help make my davening more meaningful. Of course, sometimes - especially on Yom Kippur afternoon - I just need to stop for a few minutes, so I can concentrate better afterwards.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Sarah,<BR/><BR/>I used to think that fasting was counter-productive too. As well as feeling hungry, fasting often gives me a headache and makes me feel faint. However, during the last year, I haven't been able to fast for medical reasons. Even limiting myself to the bare minimum of plain essential foods like bread and water, it does introduce a small bit of pleasure into the day, making it much harder to maintain the appropriate frame of mind. It also makes it like every other day, not a special day.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-26528945185974071792007-07-20T10:20:00.000-04:002007-07-20T10:20:00.000-04:00I also have a hard time connecting to most of the ...I also have a hard time connecting to most of the Kinnot. The past couple of years I've been going to shul for shacharit, and they go through each kinnah and explain it, which makes it a little easier to feel the emotions behind them. But you're right, the "story kinnot" are easiest to connect to.Scrapshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15911315552965685448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-2431564479591201122007-07-20T10:04:00.000-04:002007-07-20T10:04:00.000-04:00I don't think anyone can really connect to "all" t...I don't think anyone can really connect to "all" the kinnos, or even a majority.<BR/><BR/>I do something similar to Tobie; even if I'm in shul, I'll sit far enough away that if I want to listen I can but if I don't I won't. (I prefer having them explain it, as do most people I know - at least it's not completely foreign that way.) Then I'll pick a few and read what I can about them, read the translations, think about them, then say them. You feel it a lot more.<BR/><BR/>FWIW, I think the four you mentioned are the ones most people connect to the best; I know I do.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-70427559565965848382007-07-20T08:58:00.000-04:002007-07-20T08:58:00.000-04:00What about fasting on Tisha B'Av?? I find that it ...What about fasting on Tisha B'Av?? I find that it prevents me from concentrating on anything other than myself and how hungry I feel. I find myself counting down the hours and looking for things to do to help pass the time. For me, fasting seems completely counter-intuitive.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-4094427934207573972007-07-20T07:03:00.000-04:002007-07-20T07:03:00.000-04:00What high expectations you have?-)There is a new s...What high expectations you have?-)<BR/>There is a new sefer from the Rav on kinos.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-74709535337435242392007-07-20T05:40:00.000-04:002007-07-20T05:40:00.000-04:00Oh please. Being a good jew is finding inspiration...Oh please. Being a good jew is finding inspiration in words that you mutter at top speed, words that are written in a flowery style that really doesn't convey much emotion to a modern ear? I'd prefer to think not, since I prefer to think of myself as a good Jew.<BR/><BR/>Here's what I do in general: ditch the shul kinnot because they aren't so useful to me. I get a translated version and go home and sit on my floor and say them slowly to myself, first the ones with which I can connect, but trying others as well. I find that the ones about the Crusades, although not character driven, are chillingly real, and find that most of them, when you read the stories behind them, actually do affect me. The ones with lists of things we lost and so forth- somewhat less so, but sometimes I even just scan those in English and try to feel the loss- the horror of the sudden gaping emptiness that is meant to be conveyed. Don't 100% succeed, but usually I get something. If the kinnot aren't helping, I'll reread eicha.<BR/><BR/>Also, remember that the mitzva of Tisha B'av is not kinnot. The mitzva is crying, is pain, and it really makes no difference whatsoever how we get there.Tobiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14930468887760990485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-49847373609909267482007-07-20T01:26:00.000-04:002007-07-20T01:26:00.000-04:00This is my favorite Yom Kippur prayer."Like clay i...<A HREF="http://www.ivrit.org/html/literary/putty_vs_fre.htm" REL="nofollow">This</A> is my favorite Yom Kippur prayer.<BR/><BR/>"Like clay in the hands of the potter..."<BR/><BR/>It's a really beautiful poem.Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-45637845418719022102007-07-20T01:15:00.000-04:002007-07-20T01:15:00.000-04:00Find a perspn your age who succeeds in relating to...Find a perspn your age who succeeds in relating to all of the Kinnos, and I'd be exceedingly impressed. You don't have any personal weaknesses to lament here, I'm afraid<BR/><BR/>I'm the sort of person who <I>loves</I> Tisha B'av, mostly because I love the exercize of trying to perform avodas Hashem out of a different emotion from the normal everyday b'simcha approach. I love Yom Kippur even more, but that's just a personal quirk.<BR/><BR/>But at least on Yom Kippur, I connect to the tefilos better than on any other day. But on Tisha B'av, I really struggle. Thank G-d for the artscroll version of the Kinnos or else I probably wouldn't understand even the basic message of half of them bichlal. They're thickly poetic and laced with allusions that I can't catch. <BR/><BR/>If I had enough time to let the poetry absorb, then I'd probably love many more of them. But the other issue that since the kinnos take up some 200 pages, and most of the congregation hardly has the patience to go through them, the shul always reads them terribly quickly and then you don't have time to get any meaning out of it at all.<BR/><BR/>Once, I took park in a women's kinnos group, where we read selected kinnos line by line and internalized their meaning. That was really great.<BR/><BR/>But if there's no group doing kinnos, I always prefer to say them in shul rather than saying them at home, because I couldn't trust myself to actually go through them at home.<BR/><BR/>Except that I'm, without fail, always the only female in my shul for tisha b'av shacharis. And I really hate that awkward feeling of "they opened up the ezras nashim just for me." That's so annoying.<BR/><BR/>So Tisha B'av can be a difficult day to get into the mood. But for some reason I just <I>love</I> to find that if I sequester myself in my room for a few hours, inevitably I find myself at the point of tears for the loss of everything of which I am incapable of conceiving. It's really other-wroldly, and it's incredible how you can prompt the emotions, almost at will, and yet they can still be authentic.<BR/><BR/>That's my take on Tisha b'av.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com