tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post4561961353286714867..comments2024-03-18T03:40:39.185-04:00Comments on The Curious Jew: Retroactive Gittin? - Halakhic Time TravelChanahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comBlogger54125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-5877250185527023412011-01-03T15:44:34.488-05:002011-01-03T15:44:34.488-05:00Tobie, thank you! I love to learn and I am not let...Tobie, thank you! I love to learn and I am not letting anyone take that away from me ever. By the way, everyone should check out torahleadership.org for some really cool stuff on similar topics. I was in the Beit Midrash program and I love the Center for Modern Torah Leadership!!!PoMaflahnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-1523879458327618832010-01-14T17:20:39.502-05:002010-01-14T17:20:39.502-05:00Many have addressed the issue of l'mafreya, an...Many have addressed the issue of l'mafreya, and I needn't add to that portion of the conversation. (Accept to point out that Tosefot in Gittin addresses the issue explicitly in the discussion of hafk'at kiddushin.)<br /><br /><br />The statement that anyone who says David sinned is in error is quoted by the Gemara Shabbat in the name of R. Shmuel bar Nachmani. The contrary opinion is voiced by R. Yehuda in the name of Rav in Brachot (IIRC), and there it determines halacha (namely that the 14th bracha of Shemona Esrei is Bonei Yerushalim and not Elokei David u'vonei Yerushalyim) So we shouldn't assume that the drash we all learned as kids is the whole story.<br /><br />Also perhaps of interest is the opinion of R. Yehuda Henkin (in the drashot after B'nei Banim IV) that Shmuel b. Nachmani is not claiming that the one who says David sinned is making a factual error, but is making a pedagogical error.Mike S.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-49088033789945849982010-01-14T04:20:40.664-05:002010-01-14T04:20:40.664-05:00Chana: Okay, I will grant you that the experience ...Chana: Okay, I will grant you that the experience is different and that certain doors are closed by virtue of being female. I was reacting to the original quote <i> boy, am I jealous of you yeshiva guys. You learn such fascinating things! </i> and saying that such fascination was in your grasp as well. <br /><br />Also, there are female places that can approach the yeshiva atmosphere, including Migdal Oz and Brovender's, from what I have heard, in terms of long hours and intensity and all that. I do think there should be more yeshivot for girls instead of all these seminaries, since the experiences are completely different, but the market forces should handle that in time.<br /><br />Thirdly, I am not entirely sure that if you were a boy, you would be having all of these experiences. You wouldn't go learn at Mir for real, although I grant that you might pop into their Beit Midrash and you are missing that. But many yeshiva experiences are not the right thing for you, regardless of your gender, based solely on your personality and hashkafa.<br /><br />Fourthly, if "alas, I am a lass" means nothing more than "I wish I could experience all those things that are reserved for boys <i>and</i> all things reserved for girls by society as it currently exists", then I apologize for my irritation and suppose I don't really object to that. It sounded to me like a more sweeping acceptance of gender roles, but again, it may have been the hour and the grumpiness.Tobiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14930468887760990485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-88606535091422308642010-01-13T23:10:50.263-05:002010-01-13T23:10:50.263-05:00omg tobie, happy belated b-day, didn't realize...omg tobie, happy belated b-day, didn't realize it was u. u share chanas b-day, how weird is that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-39746005737896618552010-01-13T20:29:22.087-05:002010-01-13T20:29:22.087-05:00to inkstainedhands and anon145-
the gemara explici...<i>to inkstainedhands and anon145-<br />the gemara explicitly says that david hamelech did NOT sin. when he says chatasi he meant it on his level it would be considered wrong, but as for an actual sin, he did not. this is the importance of not just reading the pesukim at surface value, but having a mesorah (ie torah shebaal peh) to understand the pesukim throughout TaNaCh.</i><br /><br />I never realized there was a torah shebaal peh for the stories of Nach. I think the authors of Nach were very explicit and for a purpose. The punishment David got was for his uncouth way of dealing with Uriah (as some commentators would like to believe) but because of that union, hence the child dies.Holy Hyraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704030181702087485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-29056839737825566002010-01-13T19:21:55.256-05:002010-01-13T19:21:55.256-05:00Tobie,
You're talking specifically about the ...Tobie,<br /><br />You're talking specifically about the learning while I am talking about an <i>experience.</i> Thus, we're not going to agree. Sure, girls can learn Gemara if they find the right forum. That doesn't mean they can learn at YC or the Mir or BMG or any of those places- places which I think it would be <i>fascinating</i> to experience. Whereas you are talking about actual knowledge, I am talking about the experience of being a boy, of attending Skokie or Tels or Witz, etc. So you're right- I agree with you- girls can learn the same material; however (obviously) they can't learn in the same places.<br /><br />Honestly, I don't quite understand why my desire to spend some time in the other gender's shoes is so irritating to you. I never suggested girls don't have the mind to learn; they just don't have the same experience. And I've always been intrigued by the experience.<br /><br />Nor do I think I am 'blaming' things on my gender; I am simply stating a fact- a boy can learn in the Mir, in Brisk, Tels, Witz, Philly, Skokie, etc- a girl can't.Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-60076151274347978962010-01-13T18:29:11.938-05:002010-01-13T18:29:11.938-05:00Tobbie,being grouchy is not an excuse for being a ...Tobbie,being grouchy is not an excuse for being a mussarnik.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-52408488973845020962010-01-13T17:32:54.490-05:002010-01-13T17:32:54.490-05:00Chana: there's stuff out there. Drisha is not ...Chana: there's stuff out there. Drisha is not bad, there are other institutions, you can even take some decent classes in the Talmud department at Bar Ilan, all open to women. There are shiurim that you can listen to online, you can find a chavruta, you can download source sheets from vbm, you can open up a talmud and just plunge the heck in...there are a million and one ways of finding constructive solutions to your problems instead of indulging in useless counterfactuals. <br /><br />I would also point out that there a number of seminaries (Migdal Oz pops into my mind, as it shares Gush staff, but it's not the only one) that offer learning opportunities. Deciding not to attend one was your decision, and was motivated by more than simply gender. <br /><br />I say this as a girl who was taught no Talmud until one day, she sat down with her sister and little brother (similarly inexperienced) and bowled their way through until something made sense and then took all of the (few) Talmud classes her seminary offered. I wish that there had been more, but that was a result of the seminary I chose and cannot be blamed on gender but rather on my personal decisions.<br /><br />If you really want to live like a boy, you can stop attending grad school and go attend a school of higher Judaic learning. Drisha, Nishmat, whatever you like.<br /><br />And the reason that I dislike the "alas, I am a lass" nonsense is because it implicitly accepts that being a lass is a legitimate reason to be barred from all sorts of fun stuff and I simply don't buy that. Some things are, indeed, impossible, but there are a lot fewer of those than we tend to accept.<br /><br />Sorry if I'm grouchy, it's pretty late here.Tobiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14930468887760990485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-71566921125912964752010-01-13T17:20:42.301-05:002010-01-13T17:20:42.301-05:00im ur age and this "alas" stuff happened...im ur age and this "alas" stuff happened to me a while ago<br /><br />i wonder where it ran to hide ;)<br /><br />a tiara and a brain!<br /><br />alas!<br /><br />:)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06735126983266469223noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-24725158856931256622010-01-13T13:07:34.223-05:002010-01-13T13:07:34.223-05:00"could they do this barley-eating experiment ..."could they do this barley-eating experiment instead?"<br /><br />Just to be clear, there was nothing experimental about it; I don't think anybody ever got out of there alive. This was just the method used to kill somebody while still technically keeping their hands clean.S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17099948243102349368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-91275323367637651212010-01-13T10:59:45.254-05:002010-01-13T10:59:45.254-05:00Sure, the actual learning is possible through, say...Sure, the actual learning is possible through, say, Drisha or suchlike but it's simply not the same as what I would like to be doing, so yeah...I would like to be a boy and get to take advantage of all those opportunities. <br />=========================<br />My impression is there is little give and take in most shiurim so you can go to YUTORAH and hear the shiur yomi and get the same experience.<br />KT<br />Joel RichAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-12388529152380418522010-01-13T10:06:04.678-05:002010-01-13T10:06:04.678-05:00Tobie, dear, it's not the same as getting the ...Tobie, dear, it's not the same as getting the opportunity to learn at Gush or see BMG or otherwise check out all the many institutions from the Haredi & Modox worlds. You don't get the opportunity to sit in on lectures and shiurim from the YU Roshei Yeshiva and form connections with those rabbanim. Sure, the actual learning is possible through, say, Drisha or suchlike but it's simply not the same as what I would like to be doing, so yeah...I would like to be a boy and get to take advantage of all those opportunities. As for your not liking it due to your feminist perspective, that's fine- I have never claimed to be a feminist.Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-19214611708003723262010-01-13T09:36:45.724-05:002010-01-13T09:36:45.724-05:00Meh, I have no patience for this "why aren...Meh, I have no patience for this "why aren't I a boy" jazz. There are plenty of institutions in America and in Israel where you can get a pretty awesome Talmudic education, starting from just about any level, as well as any number of online resources, books, etc. I find it difficult to believe that there is nothing on the internet or in the NY metropolitan area that can give you what you're looking for. If you are choosing not to pursue those paths, fine, but don't blame it on your gender. <br /><br />And there is something about the "alas I am a lass" mantra that really, really just bugs me, from a feminist perspective.Tobiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14930468887760990485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-65850690926678170762010-01-13T08:54:55.913-05:002010-01-13T08:54:55.913-05:00BTW Chana another classic case is found in ketuvot...BTW Chana another classic case is found in ketuvot 33 where if one hits another and the hitee is in bed and hasn't gotten up yet, they hold the hitter pending whether the hitee is able to walk again, if not , they kill hitter.<br /><br />What is the hitter's halachic status as they wait?<br /><br />KT<br />Joel RichAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-14159600478020632322010-01-12T22:28:10.240-05:002010-01-12T22:28:10.240-05:00"but in terms of what they learn in yeshiva....."but in terms of what they learn in yeshiva..."<br /><br />It does come with a price; girls schools, because they don't have the same aspiration in terms of producing a talmid chacham have room for extracurricular activities, which can develop other parts of a student.<br /><br />Now a person may say, "I'll take Gemera over playwrights and drama club any day", but a yeshiva kid who hates basketball may prefer some of what they offer in frum girls schools(of course one can try to have the best of both worlds and spice up a curriculum or, individually, find hobbies).<br /><br />This is also illustrated in the end of this JA article by Toby Katz who writes "I only wish there were an equivalent magazine for boys...", though in truth, I don't see why there couldn't be some type of magazine, and plenty would be interested in creative writing.<br /><br />http://www.ou.org/index.php/jewish_action/article/8846/Shades of Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03029177164921795725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-84777272120899758902010-01-12T20:26:17.006-05:002010-01-12T20:26:17.006-05:00Hey peeps! Why don't we all just check the gem...Hey peeps! Why don't we all just check the gemara and commentaries that speaks directly about Dovid and Uriah (which actually caused this blogpost to happen)?<br /><br />Kesubos Daf Tes Umed Bais (9b)<br /><br />(I think over there we were pointed to Sotah Daf 27b, but I may be mistaken.)<br /><br />-HeshyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-62489765478036381512010-01-12T20:08:09.474-05:002010-01-12T20:08:09.474-05:00The important thing to remember about kipa is that...The important thing to remember about kipa is that it is "self inflicted"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-88389036810595656392010-01-12T17:11:13.582-05:002010-01-12T17:11:13.582-05:00To Inkstainedhands-
Take for example the story bro...To Inkstainedhands-<br />Take for example the story brought down in Sanhedrin 37...<br /><br />That is a separate sugya known as "umdena." <br /><br />Based on the aforementioned Maharatz Chayos, the beis din may be allowed to kill the person through kipa, but not through the misas beis din that fits the crime.The Other friendnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-81367094767859966542010-01-12T17:01:03.078-05:002010-01-12T17:01:03.078-05:00Anon 4:54,
And since when is age a barrier to fri...Anon 4:54,<br /><br />And since when is age a barrier to friendship? Though having no time, I understand...<br /><br />That should be the new motto: Sparkly Tiaras <i>and</i> a Brain! Come join the 'Alas, I Am A Lass' Club!Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-80252027416225957212010-01-12T16:54:32.488-05:002010-01-12T16:54:32.488-05:00I'm anon 4:43.
Sparkly tiaras and a brain -...I'm anon 4:43. <br /><br />Sparkly tiaras and a brain - oh boy we would have been good friends if we were contemporaries (alas, I am probably like 10-15 years older than you! and anyways have no time for friends anymore).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-15115455084960720132010-01-12T16:48:31.934-05:002010-01-12T16:48:31.934-05:00Anon 4:43,
Hey, hey- R' Akiva started learnin...Anon 4:43,<br /><br />Hey, hey- R' Akiva started learning when he was 40. I'm 21. I could still do it if I had a teacher. As for the baby and suchlike, I understand what you're saying regarding the whole package and suchlike and I wouldn't <i>really</i> want to be a boy (as my friend pointed out, most boys don't wear glitter or sparkly tiaras) but in terms of what they learn in yeshiva...hell, yeah.Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-21053509753344851372010-01-12T16:43:52.124-05:002010-01-12T16:43:52.124-05:00Chana - we all at some time wonder why we weren...Chana - we all at some time wonder why we weren't born a boy because of the learning. Just you wait until (iy"H) your baby is up all Friday night, finally falls to sleep at 6 AM and you get to sleep later than your hubby who has to scedaddle off to minyan. It only multiplied with more kids. You will be thanking your lucky stars that you can daven later on beyehcidus. As for the intellectual stuff - so go learn (Tanach can be intellectual as well as it would be pretty hard to make up all the missed time and jump right into Gemarah)- or do what I did and go to law school :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-39245051321860270992010-01-12T15:34:07.661-05:002010-01-12T15:34:07.661-05:00Daniel P is on the right track, but the drashot ha...Daniel P is on the right track, but the drashot haran is only confirming the power of the king to maintain civil society, in fact many hold that the later beit din's power to make property hefker, or enforce extrs-judicial punishments flows from the power of the king (i.e. once there was no king, someone had to do it).<br /><br />"The ma'aseh develops gradually. It begins right away, however is considered to be complete only on the thirtieth day." -yes but that doesn't tell us whether the cat is dead in the meantime (Schroeder - the physicist)<br /><br />KT<br />Joel RichAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-17085550365712352722010-01-12T15:08:15.917-05:002010-01-12T15:08:15.917-05:00"There are many other examples...One can be i..."There are many other examples...One can be in an indeterminate status (think physics)"<br /><br />One way of explaining this is summarized in the shiur on the topic below:<br /><br />"The ma'aseh develops gradually. It begins right away, however is considered to be complete only on the thirtieth day."<br /><br />http://www.ericlevy.com/HarEtzion/HarEtzion_Kiddushin_LeacharLamedYom.htmShades of Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03029177164921795725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-56217711602743029382010-01-12T15:07:03.246-05:002010-01-12T15:07:03.246-05:00Daniel,
O', I'm not saying there is any h...Daniel,<br /><br />O', I'm not saying there is any halakhic reason I wouldn't be able to learn. I'm saying I would need a teacher to teach me! If you're volunteering to fly to America to undertake that, then sure... ;)Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.com