tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post3833619707668564652..comments2024-03-18T03:40:39.185-04:00Comments on The Curious Jew: Child Abuse: The Halakhic SourceChanahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-90461193559367553682008-02-12T15:50:00.000-05:002008-02-12T15:50:00.000-05:00The sorry of the child being held under water brin...The sorry of the child being held under water brings back bad memories. My foster mother used a cold bath and pushing my head under water a very frequent occurance of so called 'punishment'. I am not Jewish, a christain myself. However, it does not matter to which religion, culture or any background, should a child have to face this. How can a frighten child have honor for their parent(s)?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-15278751128611801962007-07-30T17:54:00.000-04:002007-07-30T17:54:00.000-04:00I assume rape is included under the prohibition of...I assume rape is included under the prohibition of bodily assault? The cases mentioned specifically involve married women, in which case the rapist is effectively punished like an adulterer as well as an assaulter. But in terms of physical harm, that would apply to all rape.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-34781661809308235262007-07-29T14:22:00.000-04:002007-07-29T14:22:00.000-04:00Last anonymous,I am planning to go into that in an...Last anonymous,<BR/><BR/>I am planning to go into that in another post; I am slowly unlearning my assumptions about what is in the Torah and learning what is actually there. And rape is one of the crimes that is not actually punished harshly, as you mentioned...Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-14015385919118263942007-07-29T11:17:00.000-04:002007-07-29T11:17:00.000-04:00If this halacha bothers you, I wonder if you have ...If this halacha bothers you, I wonder if you have any thoughts on how halacha treats the rapist; namely that he is to marry his victim and never divorce her if that's what she wants, or he just has to pay a fine. I've always been troubled by this. I think the punishment for rape should be much more harsh.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-79008446986052107112007-07-27T12:52:00.000-04:002007-07-27T12:52:00.000-04:00I read your post and my heart started aching. How...I read your post and my heart started aching. <BR/><BR/>How can I teach my son to respect people when someone who claims to love him shows no respect for his well-being?<BR/><BR/>"Children learn what they live."<BR/><BR/>How can I ask my son to respect me when I have to send him to someone who does him harm (mentally, physically, verbally, emotionally)? How can I ask my son to believe in truth and justice... in the Torah and Hashem???come runninghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00264472908368786844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-35368527698007600852007-07-27T03:34:00.000-04:002007-07-27T03:34:00.000-04:00Chana,As a few commentators have stated all the la...Chana,<BR/><BR/>As a few commentators have stated all the laws that apply to everybody certainly apply to children. Being emotionally, verbally or physically abusive is explicitly strictly forbidden to your neighbor or friend, and would certainly apply to your child. <BR/><BR/>We have a new trend where city councilmen and state legislators are trying to impose special laws with heftier punishments for killing or hurting a person because they are black, gay, or any other "biased" reason. While bigotry of any kind is reprehensible, killing someone because of their wallet or because they are black still results in a dead person and that is the punishable crime.<BR/><BR/>My point is that the Torah only breaks down a new specific category if we wouldn't know that it applies to that category. Children (other peoples or your own) fall in to the same category of biblical prohibitions of speaking loshon Hora, embarrassing someone, or harming them etc. We do not need a separate injunction warning us that it applies to children. <BR/><BR/>The one distinction between your neighbor and your child is discipline. We can't discipline our neighbors (I wish we could!) but we must discipline our children.<BR/><BR/>The tricky part is in HOW we discipline our children. Back in the day it was standard practice to discipline a child by hitting them. Clearly the line between discipline and abuse in some circumstances had become blurred. <BR/><BR/>I tell you this, when a parent crosses that line between discipline and abuse s/he is violating multiple biblical laws and is making G-d extremely angry.<BR/><BR/>G-d loves kids just as much as He loves your neighbor, that's what He told me at Sinai. ;-)P Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13946942159171947268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-44511303422689154402007-07-27T01:53:00.000-04:002007-07-27T01:53:00.000-04:00Along the lines of Rabbi Garfield, check out Artsc...Along the lines of Rabbi Garfield, check out Artscroll Yerushalmi Berachot 30b, note 4:<BR/><BR/>"It is preferable that [a son or daughter] avoid his mother who belittles him, lest he become guilty of treating her improperly (Yefeh Mareh). Although a person is still obligated in the honor of a mother who humiliates him (see Yerushalmi Peah 7:7), he is not obligated to make himself available to her as a target for her abuse (Alei Tamar)."<BR/><BR/>This is talking about verbal abuse. When it comes to genuine physical abuse, it is obvious that a parent who is guilty of such heinous conduct would be considered a rasha, and would be deserving of harsh measures.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-62106942108867738292007-07-27T01:50:00.000-04:002007-07-27T01:50:00.000-04:00i'd think it would be obvious that a parent who is...i'd think it would be obvious that a parent who is physically, verbally and emotionally abusive would be classified as a <I>rasha‘</I>.Steg (dos iz nit der šteg)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07694556690190505030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-67565262474520322952007-07-26T19:39:00.000-04:002007-07-26T19:39:00.000-04:00Daat Y,Thank you so much. Of course I don't believ...Daat Y,<BR/><BR/>Thank you so much. Of course I don't believe the Artscroll book is authoritative, which is why I had an entire fight with my camp counselor, but I had nothing to back me up and she had the book. I'll check out the articles.Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-68072524624185196512007-07-26T19:07:00.000-04:002007-07-26T19:07:00.000-04:00With regard to corporal punishment today to a chil...With regard to corporal punishment today to a child,it is halachically unacceptable today.Including opinions of R.Y.Kamemetsky and R.Wolbe(Alei Shor).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-83341390359821357042007-07-26T18:52:00.000-04:002007-07-26T18:52:00.000-04:00Chana for a comprehensive article please see R.Bro...Chana for a comprehensive article please see R.Broyde on child abuse found on JLaw.The TZITZ ELIEZER 19:52 CONSIDERS THE PARENT IN THAT INSTANCE A RODEF AND CAN BE REPORTED EVEN TO THE AUTHORITIES.IF RELATING TO AN ABUSIVE PARENT IS HARMFUL IT IS APPROPRIATE HALACHICALLY TO KEEP ONE'S DISTANCE .<BR/>You should know not to use an art scroll book as authoritative.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-21082403211178190342007-07-26T15:58:00.000-04:002007-07-26T15:58:00.000-04:00Chana,It may be true that abused children have to ...Chana,<BR/>It may be true that abused children have to honor their parents. But maybe you should investigate what it really means to honor one's parents in such a situation. I can't say that I've personally spoken to any Rabbi's about this issue, but I have many friends who have, and they have told me quite the opposite of what your post seems to suggest. Your post suggests that even a child who is abused is obligated to always talk kindly to his parents, serve them etc. However, for a child who is suffering and burning with anger at his parents, based on what I've heard, this does not seem to be the case. I have one friend who has serious issues with his father and is in so much pain because of this. After speaking to his Rav about it (and I know the Rav - he is very respected), he told him that for his own sanity, if he needed to call up his father and call him every horrible word that this guy could think of, he should do it.<BR/>Again, I only heard this from my friend, not from the Rav himself, and I certainly don't have any sources off the top of my head to quote you, but the story I just stated is one of many like it that I've heard from other friends, so this would lead me to believe that there is something we are all missing here about what it really means to honor a parent who has caused a child immeasurable pain.<BR/>It seems to me that the sanity and health of the child comes first, and (if that is achieved), then honor comes second.<BR/>Perhaps since Dovid was on such a great level, he was able to surpass his own anguish to a point where he truly felt that he could show honor to his father-in-law.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-8221759479168146812007-07-26T14:43:00.000-04:002007-07-26T14:43:00.000-04:00Chana, while reading your post I was reminded of s...Chana, while reading your post I was reminded of something I once read, and I was able to find it again. The source is a Rabbi Garfield of Atlanta, GA:<BR/><BR/><I>The Torah requires a child to respect the parent. This does not mean that they have to act as a doormat. Allowing a parent to act towards you in such a way does not show them respect, but rather disrespect by accepting such behaviors. The Torah would require you to be respectful in your response to their actions. An example of an appropriate response may be "It hurts me too much to hear you talk to me this way so I will be leaving the room" or "I am sorry you are so upset but responding the way you do will not help me understand your point of view any better." These responses are respectful in two ways. You are communicating your displeasure<BR/>respectfully and showing your respect towards them in not allowing them to act with you in a disparaging way.</I><BR/><BR/>I hope that is of some help.<BR/><BR/>But, yes, it is horrible, words don't even describe it, that many parents do not place treating their children properly as highly as, say, keeping Shabbat or kashrut. A parent should look at the laws that we do have about raising children, and any laws about how to treat other people properly should especially apply to one's children. I believe that a person who becomes a parent must make parenting properly the highest priority.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-24294954517454993422007-07-26T13:41:00.000-04:002007-07-26T13:41:00.000-04:00Hmm.. there's a probably a difference between corp...Hmm.. there's a probably a difference between corporal punishment and abuse. We can argue whether cp is necessary at all, and if so, under what circumstances, but I think it's safe to say that smacking a young child lightly and severely beating/injuring the child are very different things. The second category would probably be covered by the same prohibition as striking an adult.Irina Tsukermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10964771563778702009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-71029926957611935282007-07-26T11:58:00.000-04:002007-07-26T11:58:00.000-04:00Anonymous 9:07,Yes, The New York Times Magazine di...Anonymous 9:07,<BR/><BR/>Yes, <I>The New York Times Magazine</I> did a takedown of Pelzer's book and suggested that he suffers from delusions of grandeur and made the entire thing up. Of course, we've all seen how reliable they are when it comes to what they print.<BR/><BR/>Pelzer has been called a "professional victim," a huckster, a racketeer and other names. I have no way of confirming the authenticity of his work. We know that <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/Brothers-Journey-Surviving-Childhood-Abuse/dp/0446533688" REL="nofollow">at least one brother</A> confirms Dave's story. Dave would have to be extremely devious to imbue his work with so much power if he is truly making the entire thing up. <BR/><BR/>But that is neither here nor there. What matters is that I believed it at the time. If you think it is false, it is at the very least a powerful work of fiction. This may not have happened to Dave, but I know people who have been abused, and his story is only a magnified version of the horror they endured.<BR/><BR/>For that reason, I think his words can still stand. They are effective and powerful; to quote Chief Bromden, "it's the truth even if it didn't happen."Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-84537644012675206662007-07-26T09:07:00.000-04:002007-07-26T09:07:00.000-04:00Just a note- I have read that A Child Called It is...Just a note- I have read that A Child Called It is totally false- his allegations disputed by all siblings and adults around him during his childhood. While we live in time of recovered memories and the notion that if it feels like it is true for you then it is true, these questionable events do not hold up under scrutiny and are therefore useless to soldify ones points.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-6296104951581625652007-07-26T08:43:00.000-04:002007-07-26T08:43:00.000-04:00I don't think it is so odd that there are not spec...I don't think it is so odd that there are not specific laws forbidding child abuse. There are laws forbidding physical or even emotional harm to people in general. If they apply to adult strangers, how much more so should they apply to defenceless children in one's care.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-86928216964979571532007-07-26T07:27:00.000-04:002007-07-26T07:27:00.000-04:00I've talked to several rabbis about this (mostly o...I've talked to several rabbis about this (mostly on the MO end of the spectrum) and been told the same thing by all of them - as an adult child if your parents are abusive you are obligated to respect them by not giving them the chance to abuse you - if necessary never seeing them. You may not curse them, but if you suspect physical abuse of a child still under their control pikuach nefesh applies.Larry Lennhoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06578073969473815180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-16472296209526190352007-07-26T04:21:00.000-04:002007-07-26T04:21:00.000-04:00http://www.theawarenesscenter.org/legal.html#Child...http://www.theawarenesscenter.org/legal.html#Child%20Punishment<BR/><BR/>this article I found says basically my instincts on the subject- hitting a child is just as forbidden as hitting anybody else. Special dispensation was given for effective corporal punishment in a time when that was regarded as an efficient way to get things done.<BR/><BR/>As to honoring an abusive parent, I think the David story davka offers a very fair perspective on the whole thing. On one hand, David continued to give Shaul the official honor earned by his rank (whether as king or as father-in-law). On the other hand, he fled him. Got as far away from him and any possible forms of abuse that he could. Asking a child to still give an abusive parent official honor, difficult though it may be, is not the same as asking them to tolerate the abuse,Tobiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14930468887760990485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-88737884215822622992007-07-26T02:07:00.000-04:002007-07-26T02:07:00.000-04:00Train a child according to his way - Mishlei 22:6t...<I>Train a child according to his way</I> - Mishlei 22:6<BR/><BR/><I>teach [Torah] to your children</I> - Dvarim 11:19<BR/><BR/><I>don't place a stumbling block before the blind</I> - Vayikra 19:14<BR/><BR/>Abusing a child would violate all these laws wouldn't it?<BR/><BR/>Talmud talks about a father teaching his son a skill, teaching Torah, and finding a wife. There's another view about teaching children life-saving skills, like swimming. I'm not sure exactly where they are in Talmud, but I remember reading the quotes from some tractates. Those would be some rights, wouldn't they? Also, what about inheritance?<BR/><BR/>Also, isn't it forbidden to hit a fellow Jew?haKiruvhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12364180049796549383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-31486522330594752232007-07-26T01:11:00.000-04:002007-07-26T01:11:00.000-04:00Couple of things:Molekh is not about necessarily k...Couple of things:<BR/>Molekh is not about necessarily killing a child - just brutally injuring. The punishment for injuring is not death. The parent is killed because of the hillul Hashem. He / she would have gotten lashes also, if not for kim leih bederabba mineih.<BR/><BR/>Regarding kavod: a child is always obligated, as per the Shulhan Arukh. The problem is, is that sometimes we pretend it means honoring them.<BR/>1. Pikuah nefesh comes first no matter what - a child could certainly inform on his parents to protect his life OR his health.<BR/>2. A child only must do that which is considered to be kavod. If a parent asks you to do some unnecessary thing - you are not obligated to do so; we are only obligated in specific actions as spelled out by the SA.<BR/>3. A child does not need to be around to obligate himself in kavod. If he isn't there, he isn't obligated.<BR/>I'm not saying that this is not a completely horrible situation to be in, and even the minor issues of kavod and yirah that even such a child is obligated in, could make one sick.<BR/>I am just pointing out that, while a completely terrible and horrible existence, the mitzvah of kibbud av va-em should not make the child's life worse.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-42486429200494841162007-07-25T23:51:00.000-04:002007-07-25T23:51:00.000-04:00Chana,If you're interested in what I have to say, ...Chana,<BR/><BR/>If you're interested in what I have to say, u can e-mail me personally. But I don't think that the statement in the Fifth Commandment is a universal statement.Rebeccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04466262450322664150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-43288848898036342852007-07-25T23:04:00.000-04:002007-07-25T23:04:00.000-04:00I'm sure one could argue that true abuse would fal...I'm sure one could argue that true abuse would fall under dina d'malchusa dina, but that's likely not what you'd like to hear.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.com