tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post3485190368413666943..comments2024-03-18T03:40:39.185-04:00Comments on The Curious Jew: Book Review: 6 DiariesChanahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comBlogger54125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-3155483838585851262011-03-02T11:17:35.529-05:002011-03-02T11:17:35.529-05:00"Modesty an adornment for life by Rabbi Peasa..."Modesty an adornment for life by Rabbi Peasach Elyahu Falk is a great book that will give you all the halachot with all the sources"<br /><br />The "all the sources" aspect of this comment is disputed. For one, look at http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Tzniut-Modern-Controversies-Community/dp/9655240053yitznewtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10559815169235725734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-10442935596723801562011-02-06T16:05:12.591-05:002011-02-06T16:05:12.591-05:00I would like to say that I agree with this book re...I would like to say that I agree with this book review 100%. My friends come to me with ideas and judgments similar to the ones made in this book, and it is outrageous. There is currently a sign hanging in my friend's school (which is the school that did this tzniyus project and that Aliza Goldin teaches in) with the words "Redefine Impossible" formed out of cut up jeans. Talk about fundamentalist.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-382016472486579982010-12-19T22:00:36.016-05:002010-12-19T22:00:36.016-05:00I am sure and happy that your girls starting to be...I am sure and happy that your girls starting to be tzniut against your rule. after reading your post this is my assumption. why would you be soo scared to have your daughter read a book of"poison"? if its really so bad wont they see that themselves? why would it bother you? Why do you need any source to prove that shes right or wrong? look if someone told you there were cows falling from the sky. you would think they are obviously wrong. therefore you wont second doubt it. simmilarly if this book was really so far from reality than why would you second doubt it? you wont! Grow Up! its not that scary. I made some very big changes in my life and im proud of it! You have to tell yourself "chana its ok to be wrong sometimes but now i must move on and go further to the truth" you will see hopefully when you get there exactly how wrong you were! dont be scared find someone who you can look up to and follow their footprints. and if your not strong enough for change at least let your kids. why should you ruin their lives. let them lead a life of their desire. and by the way it cant be that your not strong enough to grow. because Hashem only gives us problems or situations that we can handle so strive for the moon, at least youll get somewhere among the stars! Good luck With lots of love, your greatest fan(when you start changing otherwise your not such greatest fan but still with love)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-80139635192279537092010-11-28T19:50:19.092-05:002010-11-28T19:50:19.092-05:00Ok I only read your post by chance or truly hashga...Ok I only read your post by chance or truly hashgacha. I was not out looking for it. Being that i read 6 Diaries and really grew from it I thought it would be only right to stand up for the book. First your comment on this book being a piece of propaganda, its anything but it. It is ment for a normal teenage girl seeking the pure beuty of tzniut. And that is EXACTLY what it does. It shows you clearly how being a tzinuah is more than just covering up at least thats what i got away from it.Being that I have pleanty more to write without you arguing my points to see where you are coming from I would rather you just email me this way i can get back to you exacytly to your difficulty with this book my email: tinyiny@gmail.com<br />Modesty an adornment for life by Rabbi Peasach Elyahu Falk is a great book that will give you all the halachot with all the sources- however Im warning you now you just might be suprised so you just might want to grow a little more mature before you start reading any other book concerning halachaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-8672487411021948682010-10-13T20:44:55.996-04:002010-10-13T20:44:55.996-04:00hi i am a 14 yr. old religious girl. im not gonna ...hi i am a 14 yr. old religious girl. im not gonna argue with what you all said just want to say some thing really important. before you start saying things about this book, why dont you ask the girls who the book is age appropriate for, what they felt about it. this book was meant for teeagers in high school. i can tell you 1 thing for sure. many of my friends and i have really changed because of this book. us teenagers enjoy the truth and this was a very truthful and honest way to look at tznius. a way that we have never learnt before. im not all saying that everyone who read this book felt that way but many people who i asked really did enjoy it.phaigeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09939618269723901045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-44331568986143044862010-09-11T21:56:44.952-04:002010-09-11T21:56:44.952-04:00Dear Chana,
i also want to start off by saying im...Dear Chana, <br />i also want to start off by saying im one of the 6 girls- not b.c. it gives me anymore credence when it comes to this , but becuase i wamt to tell you, from a genuine point of view what a lot of others have said- that your post is very much making a mountain out of a molehill. There is nothing wrong, and as someone said earlier, there is something reeally beautiful about 6 high school teenagers caring enough to want to learn something more and something deeper about such a central part of their religion ( bc as Mrs Goldin says in the book- its not about the necklines, its about ur perspective, its really an all encompassing thing). <br />Not once in the whole experience, did any of us walk away with any information not having a root in TOrah or medrash, at no point did we started shunning our non religious relatives or friends, or start to fear we would get struck by holy lightning for not being as careful as we should be. we did not get brainwashed, and we did not get lied to- on the contrary we got told a lot of truth, and we deepeded our understading of Tznius in an intense and beautiful way. im sorry if u feel that 6 diaries is a personal attack to you, or your way of life . i assure you its not- so please, dont feel the need to attack it either- its really sad that the point where we are at now in our Jewish World, when an individual or a group tries to do something positive or expand their appreciation for their Judaism only to get shot down - not by anyone else but ourselves.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-20521293476303141072010-09-11T21:56:25.037-04:002010-09-11T21:56:25.037-04:00Dear Chana,
i also want to start off by saying im...Dear Chana, <br />i also want to start off by saying im one of the 6 girls- not b.c. it gives me anymore credence when it comes to this , but becuase i wamt to tell you, from a genuine point of view what a lot of others have said- that your post is very much making a mountain out of a molehill. There is nothing wrong, and as someone said earlier, there is something reeally beautiful about 6 high school teenagers caring enough to want to learn something more and something deeper about such a central part of their religion ( bc as Mrs Goldin says in the book- its not about the necklines, its about ur perspective, its really an all encompassing thing). <br />Not once in the whole experience, did any of us walk away with any information not having a root in TOrah or medrash, at no point did we started shunning our non religious relatives or friends, or start to fear we would get struck by holy lightning for not being as careful as we should be. we did not get brainwashed, and we did not get lied to- on the contrary we got told a lot of truth, and we deepeded our understading of Tznius in an intense and beautiful way. im sorry if u feel that 6 diaries is a personal attack to you, or your way of life . i assure you its not- so please, dont feel the need to attack it either- its really sad that the point where we are at now in our Jewish World, when an individual or a group tries to do something positive or expand their appreciation for their Judaism only to get shot down - not by anyone else but ourselves.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-8608450785158195842010-08-25T16:45:14.335-04:002010-08-25T16:45:14.335-04:00"Bein Adam L'Chaveiro, treating others ni..."Bein Adam L'Chaveiro, treating others nicely and with respect, is much more important to G-d. The Second Beit Hamikdash was not destroyed because women were not Tznius. It was destroyed because of Sinat Chinam. How we treat others is more important." interesting, considering how the FIRST beit hamikdash was destroyed 1/3 bc of giluy arayaot, aka adultery, which is a sin DIRECTLY resulting from a lack of tzniut. WHo are we to guage what is most important?? who are we to assume we have the calculations correct? it says in pirkei avot "hevei ratz l'mitzvah kalah k'chamurah" we should run to do a "small" or "Easy" mitzvah like wed run to do one of the "biggies" why? bc we DONT KNOW the schar for a mitzvah. thats the mishnah's bottom line. WE DONT KNOW. so anyone who is presumptuous enough to claim they know which mitzvot are "most important" is on the brink of being a "pick and choose jew". In our society today, being nice to people is the MOST important thing. Being PC (politically correct) and "open minded" is our battle cry. But we cannot be too open minded that our brains fall out. Let's be liberal, let's let everyone do whatever they please, let's accept everyone, care about everyone, hug and kiss and be happy peace unto the world. Fantastic. So, that's bringing u closer to Gd? yes, Gd tells us to love one another; yes, many many of our 613 commandments revolve arnd bein adam l'chaveiro. But its a copout to say that we should place more value on those mitzvot than bein adam lamakom. Being nice to ppl in this society is often way easier than davening, or doing teshuvah, or keeping shabbos, or acting modestly even. So why not make those easier things more important so we can feel better about all the mitzvot we're ignoring bc theyre too hard? I speak to myself as well here; it is easier, and it's a problem. Also, nowhere in thebook does Mrs. Goldin tell her audience to be obnoxious and heartless and insult their friends and judge them and say "ur a piece of garbage im better than you"; no. thats a world YOU are creating. She was merely suggesting that if tznius was something they were serious abt working on (isnt that a nice concept? for a group of teenagers to be serious abt workign on a mitzvah??) than they should try to do whatever it took to reach their individual goals. when you take excerpts from the diaries and pick them apart, please realize that you are attacking ONE innocent teenage girl who may very well have a larger portion in the world to come than you do.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-75493456566186512222010-08-04T13:07:49.955-04:002010-08-04T13:07:49.955-04:00chana,
i want to start off by saying that i am one...chana,<br />i want to start off by saying that i am one of the 6 girls. i experienced the entire thing. i want you to think about it in my perspective. imagine you get offered to spend an entire year focusing on one mitzvah. its constantly on your mind, day in day out. now add that to the fact that its high school, the most formative years ive had yet. instead of spending my free time outside of school going out and doing stupid things (cuz thats what high school kids do), i made meaning of my time. what we had was not brainwash sessions, it was a series of discussion groups. we, young women of today, have so many questions. and to find an adult who will give us the time of day to address our issues, questions, misconceptions, or anything else for that matter is just amazing. and you know what? it wasnt even always about getting the right answers. bc we sometimes found those on our own. we just needed someone to hear us. there are so many people who belittle the struggle that teenage girls have with tznius. those people are just ignorant. girls give up so much and they dont even know it. i dare you to pick a mitzvah, any mitzvah, and work on it for an entire year. then tell me that youre not extremely sensitive to it. tell me that when someone around you doesnt do it, doesnt give it thought, it doesnt hurt you. it doesnt bother you. we were all so so sensitive. and that was beautiful. bc it made things so clear. decisions are so much easier to make when you see clearly. that woman changed my life for the incredible. tznius is how you deal with your everyday life. not just about what clothes you put on in the morning, its also about the attitude you put on to accessorize. the outlook. the perspective. tznius is a hashkafa. its a way of life. and im so grateful to her that i know that now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-67818895703415117572010-03-01T10:14:05.591-05:002010-03-01T10:14:05.591-05:00This is a great post, and I really enjoyed reading...This is a great post, and I really enjoyed reading it.<br /><br />I believe VERY strongly that Tznius is very important, and agree that it is something that most girls struggle with.<br /><br />However, I was very disturbed by the excperts in this book, even though it's a great idea in theory. Bein Adam L'Chaveiro, treating others nicely and with respect, is much more important to G-d. The Second Beit Hamikdash was not destroyed because women were not Tznius. It was destroyed because of Sinat Chinam. How we treat others is more important.<br /><br />And I also find it insulting to women to say that Tznius is our #1 struggle. Completely not true.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-52638336882823004592010-02-23T21:50:45.802-05:002010-02-23T21:50:45.802-05:00I deleted my comment because apparently it did end...I deleted my comment because apparently it did end up coming out as if I was in "attack mode" which is something I have never intended. If Chana has read it, I ask for her mechilah because I didnt write it to offend her. I admire Chana and her blog so much for her creativity, prose, and enlightening views in Torah and secular culture. It takes a lot of courage to write your opinions in the face of unknown readers who may attack them or you personally. <br />However, I was surprised by the way she wrote this review despite her disclaimer acknowledging that the organizer of 6 diaries had sincere intetntions. My hope is that she keeps in mind again those who the can learn from the book and who its intended for, since not everyone - and especially younger teens - has the intellectual capacity or patience in reading the works of R' Soloveichik and R' Henkin. I am only suggesting that it would have been better for her to have said "Its just not my style and doesn't appeal to me" or something along those lines.<br />Have an easy fast and a freilichen purim!!Tiarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14894476244807856920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-67554476991234248412010-02-23T21:39:37.148-05:002010-02-23T21:39:37.148-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Tiarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14894476244807856920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-67139288101291995632010-02-22T21:48:35.000-05:002010-02-22T21:48:35.000-05:00Love it!
-HeshyLove it!<br /><br />-HeshyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-20235350867627576652010-02-21T15:14:51.543-05:002010-02-21T15:14:51.543-05:00Atara, you come across as pretty judgemental yours...Atara, you come across as pretty judgemental yourself. Chana wrote:"Let me make it clear that I do not doubt Mrs. Goldin's sincerity or the fact that she had nothing but the purest intentions in creating this program" <br /> It's really you, Atara, who has to soften your since you are clearly in Chana attack mode which is not OK at all.Aaronnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-11001716272785951802010-02-21T14:40:48.827-05:002010-02-21T14:40:48.827-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Tiarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14894476244807856920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-70642162062429276812010-02-19T13:55:13.213-05:002010-02-19T13:55:13.213-05:00Chana,
Food for thought: Have a look at Mesilas Y...Chana,<br /><br />Food for thought: Have a look at Mesilas Yesharim, the universally acknowledged sefer on striving to correct oneself and achieve perfection. In chapter 4, the deterrents of the first stage of growth, Zehirus, it states the importance of avoiding being around people who are a negative influence on one's behavior. It's not that we scorn them. But that if we truly desire to grow in serving G-d, which is the purpose of life, it's possible that our olam habah takes precedence over our friends. Of course it's a judgement if cutting people out of our lives will really achieve results. Also, a friend could have many other positive aspects which give much chizuk, which would overshadow the negative. But I think it's clear that in the Jewish hierarchy of values, choosing spiritual growth over friends definitely has its place.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08114935702778249193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-77988788286433684462010-02-17T14:52:23.449-05:002010-02-17T14:52:23.449-05:00"current tznius chumras require that the skir..."current tznius chumras require that the skirt fall 4 inches below the knee, so that none of the knee will be exposed if the skirt rises."<br />Not true.<br />The chumra is due to sitting down. Skirt-Wearing-Women, try this at home, sit down and check how much skirt coverage you've just lost, and much thigh is now on display, if your not wearing a long enough skirt.<br /><br />Noam:<br />It is OK to preach the improvment of your sisters lives, even if they dont understand why.Sisternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-43165987807737962772010-02-17T14:11:43.232-05:002010-02-17T14:11:43.232-05:00Why is it that as long as you're not strutting...<i>Why is it that as long as you're not strutting around in a bikini, anything you wear is okay? </i><br /><br />Turn the question on its head. Why is is that unless you are wearing clothes that conform to current chumras in tznius, what you're wearing is not okay?<br /><br />It's highly likely that the "too short" skirts that the young lady cut up did not violate any biblical or rabbinic prohibitions whatsoever. A woman's legs must be covered from the to of the knee; halacha mandates that the knees be covered, I believe in part in case the skirt rises and more skin is exposed. Now, a skirt covering the knee is not good enough; current tznius chumras require that the skirt fall 4 inches below the knee, so that none of the knee will be exposed if the skirt rises.<br /><br />A skirt that slightly exposes part of the knee is hardly a bikini.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-68508287249098589482010-02-17T12:25:40.636-05:002010-02-17T12:25:40.636-05:00Excellent post, Chana.
(By the way, the Josh who p...Excellent post, Chana.<br />(By the way, the Josh who posted at 7:55 pm is a different Josh than me.)Joshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06642569526668156286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-87059757182636511092010-02-17T12:09:19.274-05:002010-02-17T12:09:19.274-05:00Thanks for an excellent review.
It sounds like th...Thanks for an excellent review.<br /><br />It sounds like this book actually WOULD make for an interesting 'teacher moment' for young women. Ask them to read the book and THEN answer:<br /><br />(1) Do you think these diaries represent what tzniut is?<br />(2) Were the girls being tzanua? <br />(3) Why do you think the teacher and the girls got so caught up in the tzniut project?<br />(4) What other values are important besides tzniut as defined by external criteria?<br /><br />Many educators show their students the movie "The Wave" to spur a discussion about group-think and its dangers. That movie depicts an actual project that a teacher undertook with HIS students, yet both the teacher and students became immersed in this project in ways they never would have anticipated beforehand.<br /><br />I think "Six Diaries" sounds a lot like this. There is a lot of meta-aspects to this project to teach us something about why this teacher thought this project was so important & didn't correct these girls on grammar or halacha, and why these girls became some fundamentalist and judgemental as part of the project.Offwingernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-83671343553487694232010-02-17T11:02:36.174-05:002010-02-17T11:02:36.174-05:00I thought tznius taught women that they should not...I thought tznius taught women that they should not be sexual objects!<br /><br />Noam the PreacherAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-310928033098198942010-02-17T09:59:51.069-05:002010-02-17T09:59:51.069-05:00"They are pretty modestly dressed already by ..."They are pretty modestly dressed already by any standard other than one which sexualizes every inch of skin and teaches women that they are nothing but sexual objects."<br /><br />On the subject of lack of common ground, this might be exactly the problem. What happened to tzniyus being perceived as a legitimate aspect of Judaism that deserves to be worked on? Why is it that as long as you're not strutting around in a bikini, anything you wear is okay? And why is tzniyus reduced to some sort of yoke forced upon women as a way of turning them into objects? <br />What I guess I'm asking is: Why is underfocusing on tzniyus any more legitimate than overstressing it?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-88480336171779222592010-02-17T09:19:30.918-05:002010-02-17T09:19:30.918-05:00because for better or for worse, tzniyus needs to ...<i>because for better or for worse, tzniyus needs to be grappled with</i><br /><br />There's the crux of the lack of common ground here. I <b>don't</b> think tzniyut needs to be "grappled with" at all. There can be a dress code for schools, fine. But otherwise? It's not like these girls are walking around in bikinis. They are pretty modestly dressed already by any standard other than one which sexualizes every inch of skin and teaches women that they are nothing but sexual objects.Rabba bar bar Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11450815030297601918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-37479030283608378192010-02-17T05:41:51.813-05:002010-02-17T05:41:51.813-05:00just a thought for commenters - it's interesti...just a thought for commenters - it's interesting to me how the view of the quality of chana's analysis seems to be a function of the readers' take on her position on the issues raised in the book as a whole (rather than on the actual analysis)<br />KTjoel richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07367497284726635501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-26678463781106325942010-02-17T01:24:35.185-05:002010-02-17T01:24:35.185-05:00Chana,
It's ironic that I am writing this, be...Chana, <br />It's ironic that I am writing this, because I am a strong believer in halachic sources, in logical thinking, in a cognitive approach. Given any other context, 6 Diaries would be just the type of book I would derisively scan in the bookstore, and then knowingly put down. <br />But while you may be right in spirit (and believe me, I am no fan of tzniyus being turned into the only mitzvah a woman has to worry about), you have to look at 6 Diaries in the context in which it was written.<br />I know the school where this book is set, I know the girls. You have to understand that this is not a book written for those who are looking for a well-researched tome of sources to back up a halachic approaches to tzniyus. This is a book by teens who are struggling daily with the challenges of walking the fine line between trendy and un-tzniyus. It is written for teens who are living that same struggle. The painfully honest process of self-discovery isn't available in your standard halacha sefer; where you might need hardcore textual material, others might be looking for an emotional context to ground themselves in. <br />You argue against the suggestion that girls drop friends whose standards of tzniyus aren't high enough, and you have a point. But you are older, more mature; for a moment, imagine what it's like to be 16, desperately trying to change yourself while your surroundings are dragging you back. Sometimes the only way to transform IS by removing yourself from the situation. <br />And maybe that's where the issue lies: If tzniyus isn't the only thing on a woman's list, neither is it unimportant. If it would be understandable for someone struggling with being shomer negiah to take themselves out of a relationship that invariably leads to transgression, why should tzniyus be any different? <br />You say that as a teacher, you would "care more about the respect they have for one another and their desire to see the good in one another than I [would] about their clothes", but isn't that just placing the ben adam l'chaveiro of v'ahavta l'reiacha kamocha above the ben adama l'Makom of tzniyus? Isn't that ultimately the same issue you argue so strongly against?<br />I am not here to argue that 6 Diaries has got it all right, and ultimately, that's not the point. But the book you are arguing against isn't the one you're holding in your hand: 6 Diaries was not meant to be a halachic treatise, nor was it meant for everyone. It was meant to give voice to six young women, grappling with the issue of tzniyus, because for better or for worse, tzniyus needs to be grappled with. And there are plenty of young women out there for whom this book, and not a halachically-grounded one, will be the catalyst to make them listen.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com