tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post1281917574821614477..comments2024-03-18T03:40:39.185-04:00Comments on The Curious Jew: What is Thinking?Chanahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-37704158338615310232007-09-11T00:55:00.000-04:002007-09-11T00:55:00.000-04:00E-kvetcher:I haven't, but after reading about it I...E-kvetcher:<BR/><BR/>I haven't, but after reading about it I think I will. That looks very interesting. Thanks for the heads up! Books like this are my toys. :-D<BR/><BR/>In my previous AI class, we designed decision making agents with alpha-beta searching, which is basically what I described in the previous comment. I have yet, but hope, to get into learning techniques in the Spring semester, and not just decision techniques. After I get more understanding of that, then maybe I could have a better conversation with you.<BR/><BR/>I also have personal issues with the definition of "intelligence" anyways. It leads to concepts in predeterminism and free-will, and touches on a lot of things I read about when studying Chassidic works and the like.<BR/><BR/>Actually, I find many Chassidic models to coincide with my comp sci studies, such as object oriented programming. It was actually the design of the UNIX os that helped me understand the outlay of the Beit haMikdash and it's role with Jews and non-Jews(different courtyards, etc). I find it amazing that modern computer systems are adopting a system that is actually thousands of years old.<BR/><BR/>See, now you got me all worked up. :-DhaKiruvhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12364180049796549383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-15415462076580590352007-09-10T22:38:00.000-04:002007-09-10T22:38:00.000-04:00Hakiruv,Normally I would not reply for fear of sca...Hakiruv,<BR/><BR/>Normally I would not reply for fear of scaring off the non-geeks, but I think no one else is monitoring this thread...<BR/><BR/>I have never been comfortable with using current AI techniques for modeling human cognition, even the neural network stuff you seem to be alluding to. But I haven't dabbled in AI for at least 15 years so the field may have progressed significantly since last I checked.<BR/><BR/>Have you checked out Marvin Minsky's "Society of the Mind"?e-kvetcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11235994048517019317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-36992863609723476042007-09-10T17:49:00.000-04:002007-09-10T17:49:00.000-04:00E-Kevetcher: you're funny. :-DMore on the topic th...E-Kevetcher: you're funny. :-D<BR/><BR/>More on the topic though...<BR/><BR/>From my work with AI programming, a lot of thought is really just a process of decision-making along a tree of weighted paths. As someone believing in G-d, I see the root/trunk of this tree as being G-d, who is the ultimate axiom. From this trunk comes other axioms that may branch out to other axioms or conclusions. My brain consists of many of these paths, each with it's own conclusion, node, leaf, what ever you want to call it.<BR/><BR/>Each one of these paths is weighted, however, so following the rules of rational thought, we'll choose the path with more weight.<BR/><BR/>Sometimes however, along this path, the very rules we use to rationalize get changed. For instance, what if the weight of a certain path changes. We'd then have to back-track and go through the process again. This is time consuming. Although I've never been diagnosed with depression or a mental problem, but I believe this is why people get a form of depression. They have so much new and old input too process, yet continue to deal with new input daily, that it becomes overwhelming and people just shutdown. In my case, if I come across something of significance that happens in my life, I have to take time to deal with it.<BR/><BR/>So in conclusion, I'd say thinking is a process. A process that follows the tree of thought that is weighed by previously defined axioms.haKiruvhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12364180049796549383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-65042878689263662322007-09-10T12:58:00.000-04:002007-09-10T12:58:00.000-04:00There are many ways of thinking, all with their pr...There are many ways of thinking, all with their proper place and use. Wisdom lies in knowing there is more than one right way to think, and in knowing when to use which type of thinking.<BR/><BR/>I think you're well on your way.Scrapshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15911315552965685448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-75825618864604367412007-09-10T11:45:00.000-04:002007-09-10T11:45:00.000-04:00Another thought provoking post, in my opinion (an ...Another thought provoking post, in my opinion (an over used and redundant phrase, but I digress) this is the process of growing up. The world is a simple place when you’re young, its black and white, good and evil, etc. When you start to mature a lot of grey slips in, and you begin to realize that there are few easy answers. And that is incredibly scary, to the point that it often makes one question the things they hold most dear. Never be afraid of your ideas, even if 10 minutes later your not so sure anymore don't be afraid of them, and please don't delete blog posts censoring yourself will just lead to more self doubt and you'll lose your trust in your ideas and that would be terrible.Mazer Wolfsheimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05787648996585055226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-90838402525948511972007-09-09T21:57:00.000-04:002007-09-09T21:57:00.000-04:00>>This is a buddhist concept.>No, it's Jedi.Well, ...>>This is a buddhist concept.<BR/><BR/>>No, it's Jedi.<BR/><BR/>Well, I heard of <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bujew" REL="nofollow">Jubu</A>, so maybe its Jebu<BR/><BR/>:)e-kvetcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11235994048517019317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-78113437315818896962007-09-09T21:27:00.000-04:002007-09-09T21:27:00.000-04:00No, it's Jedi.:-DNo, it's <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedi_census_phenomenon" REL="nofollow">Jedi</A>.<BR/><BR/>:-DhaKiruvhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12364180049796549383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-63277064309419897112007-09-09T17:12:00.000-04:002007-09-09T17:12:00.000-04:00>"You must unlearn what you have >learned" – YodaT...>"You must unlearn what you have >learned" – Yoda<BR/><BR/>This is a buddhist concept.<BR/><BR/><I>A philosopher asked a Zen Master to explain Zen to him in as few words as possible.<BR/><BR/>The Zen Master started pouring some tea to a cup. The cup filled up quickly, but the Zen Master kept pouring.<BR/><BR/>"What you are doing makes no sense," objected the philosopher. "The cup is full. You cannot pour any more tea into it unless you first empty it."<BR/><BR/>"So it is with your mind," said the Zen Master. "It is filled with ideas and conceptions. I cannot teach you Zen until you empty your mind."</I>e-kvetcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11235994048517019317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-32432428592364539972007-09-09T00:34:00.000-04:002007-09-09T00:34:00.000-04:00"You must unlearn what you have learned" – Yoda"You must unlearn what you have learned" – YodahaKiruvhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12364180049796549383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-44529294093475251392007-09-07T12:40:00.000-04:002007-09-07T12:40:00.000-04:00Well, my first suggestion is to not delete the pos...Well, my first suggestion is to not delete the posts, even when you realize that you don't mean what you wrote. <BR/><BR/>First of all, it's a blog and not the Congressional record. <BR/><BR/>Second of all, as long as it doesn't "name names", what does it hurt? And as you just wrote, there is no problem with laughing at yourself, a certain bitul of the <I>ego</I> and it lets you analyze what you were thinking and identify why you changed your mind.<BR/><BR/>You say "let's identify the problem", but it is not clear to me what you're confused about. I don't understand what it means to have thinking that is "large and clunky and stumbles around like an elephant".e-kvetcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11235994048517019317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-437557902542613872007-09-07T12:11:00.000-04:002007-09-07T12:11:00.000-04:00E-Kvetcher,Yes, because I realized that my thinkin...E-Kvetcher,<BR/><BR/>Yes, because I realized that my thinking was flawed there, and regretted it upon reading it this morning. That's something I'm coming to do more often; I write something, then read it in the morning and go, "What the hell?" I need to think things through before writing them, but first I need to think to begin with. <BR/><BR/>Basically, I am confused.Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-51087415900729636702007-09-07T11:56:00.000-04:002007-09-07T11:56:00.000-04:00I am willing to help, not that I consider myself s...I am willing to help, not that I consider myself smarter than you, but frankly I don't understand the problem.<BR/><BR/>Does this have anything to do with the phantom post? 'Cause I had some comments for that one before the rug got swept from under my feet :)e-kvetcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11235994048517019317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-774664396879807962007-09-07T11:55:00.000-04:002007-09-07T11:55:00.000-04:00As for feeling you have to unlearn everything to t...<I>As for feeling you have to unlearn everything to think properly - that's quite normal, at least among intelligent people, especially at universiity. It means you are moving from a simplified outlook to a more complicated, mature one. It is unnerving, but good.</I><BR/><BR/>Disagree with the idea, and that it necessarily takes you from "simplified" to "mature".Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-80268092175200443852007-09-07T11:45:00.000-04:002007-09-07T11:45:00.000-04:00It depends what you mean by thought. From the con...It depends what you mean by thought. From the context, I presume you mean logical, analytical thought, rather than creative thought. Logical thought must certainly be independent of emotion, which isn't to say you can't passionately believe in what you say, but that you can't rely on your emotions as the basis of your argument.<BR/><BR/>I don't know how one learns how to do this. There probably isn't one way. Certainly being open to criticism is a good start. As for feeling you have to unlearn everything to think properly - that's quite normal, at least among intelligent people, especially at universiity. It means you are moving from a simplified outlook to a more complicated, mature one. It is unnerving, but good.<BR/><BR/>If I can't tell you how you can learn to think, I can at least say how I have learnt:<BR/>spending years at university, writing weekly essays, having them critiqued by my tutors and having to critique those of my tutorial partners;<BR/>reading arguments between academics in journals;<BR/>reading serious academic works and having to understand and critique them for my own essays;<BR/>reading intellectual books and not being satisfied until I really understand how the argument is being made, and whether it stands up to reason;<BR/>blogging - even before I post something and get feedback, while writing it I am thinking, "does this make sense? Can I defend it? How?".<BR/><BR/>I suppose the pattern emerging is the willingness to challenge every assertion, even if it seems obviously true. Test your own arguments thoroughly before making them to anyone else. Test every argument made to you, even if it is by someone you respect. Don't accept anything on trust. Only tell yourself you know something when you actually understand it, not when you've learnt it by rote. This isn't something you can learn from books, because it's about going beyond just reading books and picking up ideas from authors to actually thinking for yourself.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com