tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post116849283295570851..comments2024-03-18T03:40:39.185-04:00Comments on The Curious Jew: Truth and IllusionsChanahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-1169053915933390262007-01-17T12:11:00.000-05:002007-01-17T12:11:00.000-05:00Duby,Thanks for the response. While I certainly a...Duby,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the response. While I certainly agree with the fallibility of reason, I respectfuly disagree with the conclusion. <BR/><BR/>If you're interested, I did write a <A HREF="http://daasdiybur.blogspot.com/2007/01/can-we-question.html" REL="nofollow">post</A> which is keyed into Chana's essay, in which I discuss this in more detail.dbshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06447811758752083384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-1168913324743222112007-01-15T21:08:00.000-05:002007-01-15T21:08:00.000-05:00dbs,Your question is valid, though beyond the scop...dbs,<BR/><BR/>Your question is valid, though beyond the scope of my argument (though I will get to it briefly).<BR/><BR/>My argument was simply that, if Chana expects to determine the validity religion purely through intellect inquiry, she should be aware of the intrinsic limitations of her method, and should consequently be cautious as to her conclusions. <BR/><BR/>Chana didn't ask <B>how</B> she should approach the issue; she made it clear from her post how she intends to approach the issue. In no way did I intend to dissuade Chana from her plans. My comment simply suggests that there is a an inherent flaw in that approach, and she should be weary of its existence. <BR/><BR/>As to your question (yes yes, I'm actuall getting there :)): (1) I don't think the forum is appropriate for extensive discussion--and your question, a good one, requires an extensive response; (2) your question is dealt with in several places--the most obvious one which comes to mind (and I would guess you've read it) is Saadya's Emunot V'dayot (proof based on the five senses--in contrast to proof based on subjective intellect/emotions--and yes, I'm familiar with the issues from Locke and Hobbes); (3) I'm not saying that your question is fully satisfied by pointing to Saadya (I'm sure you are familiar with the attempts at rebuttal against him--however, there are counter rebuttals as well...; I'm saying that that is one place that gives an alternative method of testing "the truthfulness of religious propositions"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-1168823879041144842007-01-14T20:17:00.000-05:002007-01-14T20:17:00.000-05:00duby,What, then, are you advocating as an apropria...duby,<BR/><BR/>What, then, are you advocating as an apropriate method for determining the truthfulness of a religious proposition?dbshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06447811758752083384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-1168801377001149992007-01-14T14:02:00.000-05:002007-01-14T14:02:00.000-05:00I recommend reading Ernest Becker's Denial of Deat...I recommend reading Ernest Becker's Denial of Death, which is an overview of psychoanalytic thought exploring why things like religion take such strong hold on us. Contrary to the title, the book is as much concerned about the denial of life, which I think is your main question. His book is concerned about a combination of Agape and Eros, and eschews the choice of one vs. the other.<BR/><BR/>He doesn't deny religion its due, he even embraces it. I'm not sure that from this one could leap and say that halacha and Judaism is your only path, but it may give you a sense of perspective into what has motivated you to ask these questions, and then give you some feel for whether your path is one you wish to live with.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-1168781871880720532007-01-14T08:37:00.000-05:002007-01-14T08:37:00.000-05:00I feel so sorry for you.I feel so sorry for you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-1168769431263600492007-01-14T05:10:00.000-05:002007-01-14T05:10:00.000-05:00i'm sure blindly following predecessors could work...i'm sure blindly following predecessors could work for some people. probably the ones who shy away from controversy. one of the issues of doing so however is entrusting your blindness in the hands of others who are not blind, others who do the censoring, the cutting and pasting, for you. personally i feel that's a load of rubbish because though we are not the same we all live life the same way, by feeding our souls as well as our bodies. but there are those who would disagree.<BR/>by the by, in a recent conversation i had with an opponent to my personal attendance of stern, another opinion was mentioned stating that there is absolutely nothing owed to parents, and a firm belief that children must live their own lives. i think you're taking for granted that you owe your parents something. after all, isn't that a jewish concept?Lela Harbingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16252413323199579989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-1168755379527823142007-01-14T01:16:00.000-05:002007-01-14T01:16:00.000-05:00Wow, such deep thoughts! I'm amazed!In our genera...Wow, such deep thoughts! I'm amazed!<BR/><BR/><I>In our generation, we want to cut off the root of the problem- it would be difficult to rebel against a God who existed, hence we claim no God exists so that we need not even debate the validity of our actions.</I><BR/><BR/>I don't think anyone really "defies" God, even if they believe he exists. People rationalize. "Sure, God exists, but the Ultimate Being couldn't possibly care whether I drink <I>chalav yisroel</I> or not." It's true that in this day and age it's easy to deny God's existence, but observance can be dropped even without this. Most non-observant Jews still believe God exists in some capacity. They just think the tradition is wrong about what he wants from us. In any case, there are a fair number of open-minded Orthodox people around... so you can probably have your Orthodoxy and your open-mindedness too! (Actually, I think I might prefer if the open-minded people stayed within Orthodoxy, and worked to change things from the inside! Once they leave, they can't change things!)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-1168749961139577392007-01-13T23:46:00.000-05:002007-01-13T23:46:00.000-05:00Dear Chana,I suggest you look very seriously into ...Dear Chana,<BR/><BR/>I suggest you look very seriously into duby's comment. He/she makes a LOT of important and good points.<BR/><BR/>I'd like to add to that. You speak as if you are alone on this journey, that only you can find the truth. While in some respects this may be true, I'd like to remind you that you are not alone. By posting this onto a group site, you conciously or unconsiously agreed with this statement. <BR/><BR/>That being said, I urge you to enlist in the guidance of others who are older and wiser (yes, Chana, for you are aware that you do not know all), those who have found the truth, preferably that of Judaism. (Since you are already Jewish, why rock the boat?--that's a rhetorical question)<BR/><BR/>It does not have to be an old man with a long white beard, who you once termed as distant in a different post. It doesn't have to be a rabbi, per se. In fact, it doesn't have to be a man at all. But it should be someone who is strong in his or her beliefs and practices, someone who you think understands you and is willing to help you.<BR/><BR/>I know where you go to school, Chana. I go there too. And I will tell you that there are many teachers out there, of many stripes and colors, as I am sure you are aware. Try on those stripes and colors; pick someone who looks good in them.<BR/><BR/>Wishing you much good fortune in this endeavor.<BR/><BR/>~Torah is Truth~Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-1168745369867030572007-01-13T22:29:00.000-05:002007-01-13T22:29:00.000-05:00I just got back from Israel and wont have time to ...I just got back from Israel and wont have time to respond until monday night but I am very excited to parse this post. <BR/><BR/>~ MarcAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-1168710204509498482007-01-13T12:43:00.000-05:002007-01-13T12:43:00.000-05:00duby's comment strikes a chordduby's comment strikes a chordAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-1168627076333514032007-01-12T13:37:00.000-05:002007-01-12T13:37:00.000-05:00You, and your intellect, are fallible (shock/gasp)...You, and your intellect, are fallible (shock/gasp). <BR/><BR/>Despite your erudition and brilliance, your brain and intellect can lead you astray. That, in addition with the mix of emotional make-up, education, environnment, e.t.c., results in a colored world perception. Can anybody ever see the pure, objective, untainted truth? No. I would dare say, that even Descarte's attempt at stripping away all his assumptions and beliefs before embarking on his intellectual quest was, ultimately, unsuccessful. <BR/><BR/>In fact, the Rambam in his Yad Hachazaka, Hilchos Avodas Kochavim U'mazalot, Perek 1 (I believe it's towards the end of Perek Aleph), writes that there's an issur Midioraysa to read heretical books. The reason: because the mind--even great minds--are easily swayed by an attractive (though ultimately falacious and specious) argument. <BR/><BR/>The mind is not a <I>tabula rasa</I>. Being aware of the lack of objectivity in ones query of religion adds a spice of humility in ones search. <BR/><BR/>And, one more thing. The underlying (and unspoken) assumption in your post is that truth is synonymous with -- or is attainable through -- intellect. <BR/><BR/>I challenge that assumption. <BR/><BR/>Can truth really be reached through intellectual inquery? Perhaps truth is beyond the intellect, and the intellect only leads to a mirage? We humans--and especially in the past half century--idolize the intellect; but perhaps it does not hold the key to the truth? <BR/><BR/>This is not a novel concept--though it seems to have been largely forgotten by much of the new age questioners on religion; it was averred long ago by the Nevi'im. See Iyov Chapter 11:7-9, and Yeshaya 55:8-9.<BR/><BR/>This is horribly difficult for most to digest--which was essentially why that is the crux of the message in Iyov--but truth (especially if the question is whether there is a G-d and a true religion (Pascal's wager))--may be beyond grasp by human intellect. <BR/><BR/>Perhaps...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-1168594234397944032007-01-12T04:30:00.000-05:002007-01-12T04:30:00.000-05:00for me ...although I do love to seek truth...I hav...for me ...although I do love to seek truth...I have realized we are not given two separate lifetimes to live...one to study and find the truth..and then one to live that which we have learnt.<BR/>You just sorta have to do both at the same time..and hope at the end you will look back and find contentment in the choices you made..and acceptance for those you look back upon and regret.<BR/><BR/>Truly enjoyed your questioning and in depth post.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-1168538015264928852007-01-11T12:53:00.000-05:002007-01-11T12:53:00.000-05:00Thoughts:1) You owe your parents love and respect,...Thoughts:<BR/><BR/>1) You owe your parents love and respect, but you have to live your own life, too. If they would have you choose their religion over your own, or none, then that is their error. Be respectful, be compassionate with them, but be true to yourself.<BR/><BR/>2) If you believe in God but not Orthodox Judaism, then following fearlessly the truth is a more authentic religion than following Orthodox Judaism.<BR/><BR/>3) If you believe in God and Orthodox Judaism but think God is immoral, you're in trouble. :-)Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-1168500128832774692007-01-11T02:22:00.000-05:002007-01-11T02:22:00.000-05:00Part of the joy in living is the ability to questi...Part of the joy in living is the ability to question and search for answers.<BR/><BR/>Truth today may not be truth tomorrow.Jack Steinerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16625864271071630940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-1168498164516048222007-01-11T01:49:00.000-05:002007-01-11T01:49:00.000-05:00"The facts cannot lie; they can only deceive." Don..."The facts cannot lie; they can only deceive." <BR/><BR/>Don't let the facts get you down. <BR/><BR/>I find the knowledge that there exists deceptive "facts"--and it might take a lifetime to unravel them--very humbling indeed.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps you do, too.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com