tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post8595094397300552874..comments2024-03-18T03:40:39.185-04:00Comments on The Curious Jew: The Courage of Yeshiva University: A Feast Unto The LordChanahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comBlogger108125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-67602069158941909972010-07-20T01:45:14.546-04:002010-07-20T01:45:14.546-04:00Can some1 please tell me the meaning of 'Chosh...Can some1 please tell me the meaning of 'Choshka' and of which origin it is please?<br /><br />Thank you :)Swetanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-81765162540834429422010-01-10T16:07:29.161-05:002010-01-10T16:07:29.161-05:00Isn't this EXACTLY why everyone in attendance ...Isn't this EXACTLY why everyone in attendance was asked not to record it??? People are taking something Levovits said, perhaps in jest (wouldn't know since I wasn't there) and debating what he meant by it, and saying "well, if you read the transcript, you'll think X, but if you see the video, you'll think Y.) <br /><br />That is PRECISELY what R' Blau was trying to prevent when he said not to record this, is it not?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-89666273138811957532010-01-08T15:22:12.620-05:002010-01-08T15:22:12.620-05:00Chana,
I commend you for stating that Rabbi Blau ...Chana,<br /><br />I commend you for stating that Rabbi Blau was courageous for agreeing to moderate the panel. No matter what one's view of the event, I think we can all agree that Rabbi Blau displayed both courage and honesty.<br /><br />While I appreciate your analogy between Aharon HaKohen and Rabbi Blau, as it is clearly meant to show the courage and effort of each to satisfy the masses, I don't think it is accurate. Aharon not only allowed the Jews to make an idol, he fashioned it himself. Rabbi Blau moderated an event that, while controversial, was not intended to condone or endorse violating the prohibition of homosexual activity. While two of the panelists may have made comments to the contrary, the panel was meant to give a face (or faces) to the struggle that homosexuals endure, without examining the halakhic parameters of homosexuality, and it seems to have accomplished this goal. The main difference between Am Yisrael and those who advocated for this event is that the former wanted to worship an idol - a clear Torah prohibition - whereas the latter wanted to discuss the issues faced by homosexuals in a public forum. The request for the panel was certainly controversial, but did not represent a desire to violate a Torah prohibition. I know that there are those who say that Aharon had good intentions, that he attempted to postpone the creation of the idol or otherwise prevent the Jews from worshiping it, but the fact is that he made the idol and the Jews worshiped it. There is a big difference between idol worship and a discussion of challenges faced by homosexuals.<br /><br />If the analogy between Aharon HaKohen and Rabbi Blau is not accurate, it follows that the analogy between Moshe Rabbeinu and the YU Roshei Yeshiva does not hold either. Moshe was angered by, and responded to, an act of idolatry, whereas the Roshei Yeshiva were angered by, and responded to, a discussion about homosexuality - however controversial, not an endorsement of homosexual behavior, and certainly not an actual act of homosexuality, which, unlike a discussion of homosexuality or even a validation of homosexual behavior, would be tantamount to idol worship.<br /><br />I think an instance that is analogous, in some sense, to the episode of the Golden Calf, appears, "lehavdil", in "Romeo and Juliet". When the titular characters first meet, they have the following exchange (it is longer, but I am including only the part which I think is relevant):<br /><br />Romeo: Then move not, while my prayer's effect I take.<br />Thus from my lips, by yours, my sin is purged.<br /><br />Juliet: Then have my lips the sin that they have took.<br /><br />Romeo: Sin from thy lips? O trespass sweetly urged!<br />Give me my sin again.<br /><br />Here, Romeo wants a sin - a kiss from Juliet - and asks her to assist him in getting it. This is obviously much, much different than the episode with the Golden Calf, but Romeo parallels the role of Am Yisrael, and Juliet parallels the role of Aharon.<br /><br />Parenthetically, this passage in Romeo and Juliet is similar to another Biblical text, and the parallel here is much stronger. In Isaiah 6, after he sees G-d and the seraphim, the prophet laments that he is "a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips." In the following verses, a seraph flies to Isaiah with a coal in his hand, touches Isaiah's mouth with the coal, and says, "See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for."<br /><br />To return to the subject at hand, I agree with you that all of the individuals you mentioned are arguing leshem shamayim. They all want to uphold the Torah. What we have to remember is to ensure that in the course of our arguing leshem shamayim, in our effort to uphold the Torah, that we keep an open mind - not to the point of allowing anything to go unchecked, but open enough so that we can feel sympathy and compassion for other people.<br /><br />JonathanUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13934955247533464768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-82663129026166290192010-01-04T09:56:09.217-05:002010-01-04T09:56:09.217-05:00Tush leffel, anyone who proclaims the gay agenda, ...Tush leffel, anyone who proclaims the gay agenda, who participates in jqy events is going off the derech, skirting sin. <br /><br />Whether it's this issur or that issur, more or less doesn't matter. <br /><br />Rav Twersky doesn't owe anyone an apology. He was speaking for kavod haTorah. If you had more, you'd say less.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-2622593322709639182010-01-02T19:42:19.734-05:002010-01-02T19:42:19.734-05:00There's a non-Facebook link (open to everyone)...There's a non-Facebook link (open to everyone) of Levovitz's point by point rebuttal of Rabbi Twersky shlita. The link is:<br /><br /><br />http://www.syaross.org/misc/gaypanel/response.html<br /><br />...and anonymous...if you watch the video, you see, it is clear that the line about "between me and my partner", was a joke based on his assertion that its nobody's biz what he DOES OR DOESNT DO in the bedroom. Thus explicitly keeping any action in the bedroom private!<br /><br />Rav Twersky really comes close to Motzie shem ra here. I'm sure it was a mistakekuch-leffelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14564798116894186061noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-44631450040432163212009-12-31T18:05:59.106-05:002009-12-31T18:05:59.106-05:00Nice post! I didn't read all the comments (wel...Nice post! I didn't read all the comments (welcome to my life), but I did read Anonymous: The Sarcastic and your awesome response to him. *beams*<br /><br />You go girl!<br /><br />-Joseph the DreamerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-59778585808558442652009-12-31T11:51:09.066-05:002009-12-31T11:51:09.066-05:00There were only a few spelling mistakes, so obviou...There were only a few spelling mistakes, so obviously, he had help. <br /><br />1. Mr./almost Dr. Levovitz claims nowhere is mishkav zachor alluded to on vimeo, yet, he himself refers more than once to what we "goes on in the bedroom." The allusion hints not specifically to anal intercourse, but implies "intimacy." <br /><br />2. Is the community honor bound to condemn ma'ase Zimri or to support a lifestyle celebrating lust? Rav Twersky did not compare himself to Pinchas, but his impassioned speech was zealous. Couldn't Pinchas have been more sensitive to Zimri's needs? Kana-ut is sometimes a Jewish imperative, when the public good name and moral standards of the Jewish people are at stake. <br /><br />Rav Twersky is a Rosh Yeshiva. Rashei Yeshiva expect great things from our people. <br /><br />You wrote, "In our next panel, we could literally use Rav Twersky's comments as one of our stories about ways in which some rabbis needlessly add salt to our wounds by lacking sensitivity about this issue. His word usage implies that he of all people could have benefited from attending the YU event. One cannot be sensitive if one refuses to hear, see, and get to know the person suffering. I know that I plan to sit and discuss these issues with Rav Twersky in person, in order to begin work in this endeavor. I hope other Frum gays will too."<br /><br />The outcome of this discussion remains to be seen. From a human relations perspective, calling Rav Twersky to task is probably not the wisest way to jumpstart your plans to make Jewish Queer Youth mainstream on every yeshiva campus. <br /><br />That homosexuals, a distinctive minority, are and have been abused is sad. There should be more compassion. But, k'lal Yisroel goes basar rov in many things and we have a long history lusting after basar ta'avah. That doesn't make it kosher. <br /><br />Good luck.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-4208000822018082422009-12-31T11:11:17.444-05:002009-12-31T11:11:17.444-05:00Mordechai, yasher koach and kol hakavod. Everyone ...Mordechai, yasher koach and kol hakavod. Everyone should read that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-40921494261197656082009-12-31T10:36:44.501-05:002009-12-31T10:36:44.501-05:001:45--
Yes, what you write would surely be the id...1:45--<br /><br />Yes, what you write would surely be the ideal, but keep in mind that the question here isn't how someone struggling with the issue should view it--it's how should those around him treat him in light of the effects of their treatment. Do they offer sympathy as they normally might, or restrain sympathy, because as R' Twersky suggests, that might suggest lowered expectations, and could cause lowered adherence. So it's not an issue of breaking the law vs. keeping it with costs--it's a question of a 3rd party doing something that <i>might</i> contribute to less adherence of the law in the short term in another person vs something that could contribute to a worse religious life overall.<br /><br />And, um, I appreciate the concern, but that's not really what I was getting at or looking for; I was bringing that as a realistic example people do struggle with.4:03noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-77337238377506704612009-12-31T07:49:45.995-05:002009-12-31T07:49:45.995-05:00Point by point, critique, response and rebuttal of...Point by point, critique, response and rebuttal of Rav Twersky's speech. (by one of the YU panel members)<br /><br /><br />http://www.facebook.com/notes/zac-mordechai-levovitz/point-by-point-critique-response-and-rebuttal-of-rav-twerskys-speech-by-one-of-t/251912628922Mordechai Levovitznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-27182129868926222382009-12-31T06:00:48.492-05:002009-12-31T06:00:48.492-05:00Yeshiva bochurim love red meat, chulent, chocolate...Yeshiva bochurim love red meat, chulent, chocolate. <br /><br />The yetzer hara is winning.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-89543336009211683522009-12-31T03:21:45.388-05:002009-12-31T03:21:45.388-05:00One more thing I forgot to write is to identify th...One more thing I forgot to write is to identify things that lead you to bad i.e. t.v. shows... and stay away from it. Also try to be industrious and not get bored as this can also give an entrance to the yetzer hara. Kol Tuv.Dunehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07942871543480266918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-77800638327385246812009-12-31T03:19:39.647-05:002009-12-31T03:19:39.647-05:004:03:
That's an interesting point. I would sa...4:03:<br /> That's an interesting point. I would say that as a general rule option one might be true. However, regarding the specific example you gave, it is not so. That is because you have mistakenly put two options, but this is not an either/or, it's a both/and. The choice is not either to accept it and thus do this more and live a more broadly happy life - or don't accept it and and do it less but then feel awful when you do. There is a third option; which is don't accept it and do it less but when you fail say you're sorry to God give a dollar to tzdakah and Go on happily and industriously with your life. This way you will do this less often and be happy and productive. The idea that you either have to be unhappy or sin more often is a false choice from your yetzer hara. As I stated in Rabbi Haramatis' Torah on sefer Yonah - God is not looking for your sackcloth and your suffering, God wants your actions and God wants your happiness. Thus try to minimize the bad action and yet if wnd when you fall, do not fall into the yetzer haras' trap of sadness and guilt, for the yetzer hara uses that that to increase sins. Rav Nachman of Breslav talks about this in length. Thus pick option 3 - No acceptance, less bad, and yet only happiness even when you fall. And be happy that you are falling less then option two and that you are happy unlike option 1. Also some practical advice. Regarding a persons sex drive there are certain things the person can do to minimize it before marriage. 1. Don't eat red meat at all, as this increases testosterone levels and thus libido, try fish instead. 2. Try to Sleep a full night between 10 and 6, as a rested mind is more easily able to overcome desire. 3. Don't eat chocolate at all as this is an aphrodisiac. 4. Very Importantly - BE HAPPY, as an unhappy mind is far more succeptible to temptation. 5. When you are in a state of joy be careful because a person can forget consequences when in this state. 6. When there is a bad though don't fight with it or try to block it out, rather think of another thought or another topic, as since most peoples brains can't think two thoughts at once - when you think the next thought the first will fade to the side. 7. Do not drink caffeine (either coffee or sodas) as this can be addictive and cause highs and lows in which a person is more succeptible to sin. Substitute with green tea or decaffeinated green tea. - The point in life is to improve. But no matter what, never despair; that in itself is a victory over the yetzer hara. All the best.Dunehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07942871543480266918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-58983365294336328372009-12-31T02:41:03.729-05:002009-12-31T02:41:03.729-05:00Thanks, Shades of Grey. I am actually referring t...Thanks, Shades of Grey. I am actually referring to a book by R' Yehoshua Shapira on the subject--I did not know R' Aviner has one as well. <br /><br />I agree with what you note as the difference between the two cases. I am not sure if this is already what you meant by it, but to me, that suggests even more so that a more delicate/sensitive/outreaching approach needs to be taken regarding homosexuality. If we are willing to put the other topic out in the open for the religious, psychological, and halachik welfare of all unmarried males, kal v'chomer, why would there be no room to do so for the more specific needs of homosexual Jews, who don't have the "light at the end of the tunnel" as you call it? The brisker approach here does not seem to be the only one even if it was presented as such, and I think the retroactive interpretation applied by YU and this blog to the whole series of events could use earnest reevaluation.4:03noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-2921658114239930802009-12-31T02:17:42.533-05:002009-12-31T02:17:42.533-05:004:03 - I was wondering when someone was going to b...4:03 - I was wondering when someone was going to bring up this parallel. I think it is very apt in many ways (btw, are you references R' Aviner's book? A friend translated it into English, but I have yet to read it). Severity of spiritual punishment (according to mamrei Chazal, al pi kaballah, etc) involved is especially relevant to the discussion.<br /><br />The only breakdown in the parallel that I can think of is that a single teenage boy, or single young man at whatever age, still has the "light at the end of the tunnel" of marriage, whenever that will occur. The homosexual man, by contrast, does not have that distant, halachically acceptable and encouraged outlet for his sexual energies.<br /><br />I am glad you brought up the comparison, though.Shades of Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02733139852424935591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-50052316270074353142009-12-31T01:02:01.105-05:002009-12-31T01:02:01.105-05:00Dr Hall,
Would mind directing me towards any good...Dr Hall,<br /><br />Would mind directing me towards any good literature or literature review on the topic? I tried searching, but couldn't find quite what I was looking for, or else what I found wasn't available through PubMed.<br /><br />Thanks...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-63580692610384624102009-12-31T00:51:04.875-05:002009-12-31T00:51:04.875-05:00A major problem here is that it is NOT sufficient,...A major problem here is that it is NOT sufficient, according to Torah, for a Gay man simply to be celibate. Jewish men are expected to marry and to sire children. <br /><br />Are there any men posting here who would support their daughter marrying a man who says he is attracted only to other men?Charlie Hallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17667135360784254574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-30718749529192792872009-12-31T00:48:30.438-05:002009-12-31T00:48:30.438-05:00Anonymous 1:45,
I happen to be a Neurology resear...Anonymous 1:45,<br /><br />I happen to be a Neurology researcher and was working on a neuroplasticity project at the very moment that you posted your comment on the subject. <br /><br />There isn't really any convincing evidence that sexual orientation can be changed and a lot that it can't. Sorry. It may be that it can, but we just aren't smart enough to change it, or it may be that the "wiring" really is "hard". But in any case there is no "re-wiring" available today.Charlie Hallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17667135360784254574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-21043206317406544152009-12-31T00:09:19.338-05:002009-12-31T00:09:19.338-05:00Hi 1:45,
Thanks for responding. I think there wa...Hi 1:45,<br /><br />Thanks for responding. I think there was a misunderstanding of what I was asking, though.<br /><br />To clarify, I was not asking whether or not one can take into account other things besides halacha in determining what is allowed, or change halacha based on struggles. I was asking more of a meta-level question: is there any room for pursuing a <i>hashkafic</i> path that might (not for sure) lead someone to diminished expectations for keeping a halacha as I discuss above, doing so because one is taking into account other possible benefits it could have <i>for</i> keeping of halacha on the whole? <br /><br />Again, sorry to be crass, but this is still perhaps the closest example: is it better for an Orthodox rabbi to tell a teenage male that realistically, many Orthodox Jews struggle with masturbation and it's a difficult struggle, so not to get depressed if they do it--but to try their best not to, and move on with tshuva and then a happy heart if they do. Or is it better to never acknowledge that realistic angle, because if you do, they might think "I'm not really expected to never fall in this" and come to do it a couple extra times than they would have. The former option helps them navigate their halachik lives on the whole, but has the potential to increase the amount of times in the short term that they do the act. The latter might decrease the number of times in the short term, but makes them less psychologically able to readjust to the religion if they do end up doing it; they may get fed up and forget trying to struggle with it. A rosh yeshiva in Israel wrote a book providing more or less the former option, and I am sure it has been a great help to the lives of many Orthodox Jews. Was there a risk in him bringing the subject into the open? Perhaps, but the benefits far outweighed the risks. <br /><br /> Of course I agree Torah Judaism would not say, it's a struggle so change the law. My question is, must Torah Judaism say the highest hashkafic priority is not to do anything that could even potentially contribute to increasing the amount of law-breaking in the short term, or is there room to take into account long term and psychological factors in that approach (not at all permitting the forbidden).<br /><br />I believe this is an important question worth considering. (Apologies if this is still unclear in any way; let me know if so.)4:03noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-24160817689150804352009-12-30T22:56:17.126-05:002009-12-30T22:56:17.126-05:00'4:03' - re: the 7:37 pm comment
In the ti...'4:03' - re: the 7:37 pm comment<br />In the times before the batey hamikdash were destroyed, all bnei yisrael were 'in the fold' and their 'psychological well being' was wonderful. The arguments you raise are the same ones that conservative and reform judaism raised before they left the Torah. The answer is no. In Torah Judaism the only imporatant thing is to do what God says. As far as 'sympathy harming your maximum adherance to the law', that is not allowed. As this point has been stated many times in these blogs I will repeat it again, because you are confusing Gods' judgment with whether an action is right or wrong. Sympathy, struggles,.. this all goes to Gods judgement. It does not however affect whether the action is right or wrong and thus whether we should accept it or not. The argument that we should take into account other factors besides the only real factor of Gods word is simply something which would precompromise Torah Judaism and the person; in essence saying 'lets start out by saying that the mitzvot should be subject to a balancing act between what God says and what I think I like and what will cause me less strugle'. If you start out from this position you will end up not even doing that much. This is why conservative and reform jews today don't really follow Judaism. If your talking about 'Torah Judaism', which is the only Judaism from Hashem, then the 'Torah' is paramount. The Torah, as far as I know does not say 'don't kidnap or don't steal or don't eat pork, unless you feel it would be a real 'struggle' for you not to do so and unless you think it would hurt your 'psychological well being'. The psychological well being of the Nazis was supreme and they didn't struggle in the least. This is not the goal of life. Also, in reality, it is struggling and overcoming and correcting oneself that leads to real psychological well being and strength and happiness. I would direct you to study Abraham Maslow's 'Hierarchy of Needs'. There is far more to life and far more rewarding things in life then the lack of struggle.Dunehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07942871543480266918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-33324684678136085852009-12-30T21:40:59.889-05:002009-12-30T21:40:59.889-05:00Happy birthday, Chana. Now, your secret is out.
...Happy birthday, Chana. Now, your secret is out. <br /><br />Rav Twersky is a talmid hakham. Our sense of right and wrong is guided by our mesorah, values we assume to be immutable and eternal. Queer theory has no place at the table. Rav Shachter isn't feminist friendly either, anything smacking of yuhara. <br /><br />That's the threat of public spectacles, parades of "pride." What gets lost are the lost souls whose lives are miserable, whose neshomos say nafshi choshka laToirah and my chavrusa. It's not a laughing matter and not going away. Who wants to be cruel to people who suffer? It's easy to wield a big club, grab a rock and strike a blow for Neture Karta. <br /><br />At the same time, there are elements advocating lesbian nights, transgender days, a political agenda. That is what he railed against, what riled ire, I believe, the achzariyut of tarring Torah lishmah, a Torah inspired philosophy with the brush of secular liberalism. <br /><br />Despite claims of rachamanut, busha was lacking. It's easy for straight people to knock gays, to make them appear ridiculous. But, they're real people, bright, sensitive, capable, and sincere. <br /><br />Putting them in cherem, nidui, kicking them out, talking tough, does this guarantee oylam haba? <br /><br />The Rashei Yeshiva prefer that they be less strident. It takes two to tango.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-52695786726853248222009-12-30T21:28:26.829-05:002009-12-30T21:28:26.829-05:00Aaron,
There IS a birthday masquerade- come back ...Aaron,<br /><br />There IS a birthday masquerade- come back at exactly 12:00 AM!!! I'm so excited for it. ;)Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-51830463530868289862009-12-30T20:04:16.383-05:002009-12-30T20:04:16.383-05:00Chana, I came here to wish you a Hapy BirthdaY! Wh...Chana, I came here to wish you a Hapy BirthdaY! What,no BIRTHDAY masquerade this year?Aaronnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-71194980399576234472009-12-30T19:53:15.078-05:002009-12-30T19:53:15.078-05:00Chana,
How do you have time to work and keep up re...Chana,<br />How do you have time to work and keep up responding to all these comments?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-89186100911571740842009-12-30T19:51:11.290-05:002009-12-30T19:51:11.290-05:00On your last point--yes, he argues it is "cru...On your last point--yes, he argues it is "cruel" to do what he argues against, but it can be <i>cruel</i> to do what he suggests. Is there no room for taking the latter into consideration?4:03noreply@blogger.com