tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post6650805830340640287..comments2024-03-18T03:40:39.185-04:00Comments on The Curious Jew: Orthodox Religious Leaders & Sex ScandalsChanahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-84604598742058418362014-10-28T14:51:32.508-04:002014-10-28T14:51:32.508-04:00>"Most important of all, it is not for us ...>"Most important of all, it is not for us to claim that we would have behaved better in his situation. We have no idea what we would do."<br /><br />I think we can claim that we would do better. Not looking away at the accidental glimpse of an unclothed woman? That's a temptation that we men could not be sure we could overcome if faced with it.<br /><br />But this was the elaborate and premeditated setting up of cameras, recording, etc. I can say with 100% certainly that I would not have ever done such a thing. And I can't imagine any of the men I know doing anything like that. What RBF did is far beyond simply succumbing to temptation.David Staumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04092344925121412070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-13700097778018968532014-10-26T16:29:56.247-04:002014-10-26T16:29:56.247-04:00doesn't add up. many average people do terrib...doesn't add up. many average people do terrible things. most murderers are pretty below average in good inclinations. <br /><br />ortho leaders are just guys who pretend. kind of like the rest of humanity.<br /><br />posing is a pose even if the poser believes it. this guy had a problem. it wasn't the worst thing, more embarrassing and pretty fetishistic. no one got hurt. take it easy. he didn't rape anyone. it sucks big time, but if he did this? He's just a sick guy. too bad for his family.<br /><br />TuviaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-52508034099057480412014-10-23T15:46:04.231-04:002014-10-23T15:46:04.231-04:00On the other hand:
Said Rabbi Yochanan: What is [t...On the other hand:<br />Said Rabbi Yochanan: What is [the meaning of] that which is written, “For the kohen’s lips should safeguard knowledge, and they should seek Torah from his mouth; for he is an angel of the G‑d of Hosts” (Malachi 2:7)? If the rav resembles “an angel of the G‑d of Hosts,” then “they should seek Torah from his mouth”; and, if not, then they should not “seek Torah from his mouth.”<br /> <br />(Chagigah 15b and Mo‘ed Katan 17a)<br /><br />KT<br />Joel RichAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-91709508156272489512014-10-21T23:09:36.313-04:002014-10-21T23:09:36.313-04:00Looks like some people didn't actually READ TH...Looks like some people didn't actually READ THIS POST. The writer isn't arguing that the rabbi should not lose his rabbinic posts or go to jail. She is saying that the greater a person becomes, the greater his yetzer Hara, and we can therefore not judge a leader who falls (IN OUR HEADS) because we were never in his place.<br /><br />This may be why David and Solomon are heroes in Judaism, despite their having fallen.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-36089775950659349052014-10-19T15:13:42.114-04:002014-10-19T15:13:42.114-04:00Related to the ideas you mentioned in this post, a...Related to the ideas you mentioned in this post, and the notion people keep saying - "Well, doesn't he know about the internet and what's available out there, why do this to people he knows?" a Gemara in Sotah 8a comes to mind.<br /><br />In discussing the Sotah process in the Beis Hamikdash, which required the tearing of the woman's garment and possibly exposing her chest, (http://halakhah.com/sotah/sotah_8.html) and comparing it to executing a woman with stoning. <br /><br />There is a concern expressed that the young kohanim will lust after the Sotah if she is found innocent and goes home. Rabba explains that the yetzer hara only causes us to lust after women that have been seen by that particular man, and not someone he has never seen/met before.<br /><br />If all these allegations are true, it seems to fit Rabba's perspective well - unfortunately. Shades of Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02733139852424935591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-30878316771155489422014-10-16T23:07:32.899-04:002014-10-16T23:07:32.899-04:00I find this blog post utterly offensive. If he is ...I find this blog post utterly offensive. If he is guilty, it doesn't matter what he has done for the community in other ways. He needs to be punished to the fullest extent of the law and stripped of ALL Rabbinical obligations and duties for the rest of his life. <br /><br />If a father gives a child incredible love and the best opportunities in life by day but molests that child by night, the love given by day is meaningless. The child will forever be scarred and damaged. It's no different here.<br /><br />People have also come forward and said he has been investigated for highly inappropriate behavior in the past. If a Rabbi is sleeping with someone other than his wife, yet claiming to have the higher moral ground in public and someone finds out about his transgressions, he should be knocked down and taken off the 'moral authority bench.'<br /><br />This whole case is despicable and the idea that we need to forgive or not judge because he is a Rabbi who is under tremendous stress makes it worse. The Rabbi is no victim unless he was set up. The women he violated are victims as are his wife and kids. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-8749832653828191572014-10-15T14:21:18.217-04:002014-10-15T14:21:18.217-04:00Chana, you wrote "judging a person and decidi...Chana, you wrote "judging a person and deciding that one is better than them/ can write them off. God or His prophet have that ability; I don't think the rest of us do."<br />A sex offender will commit the crime whether or not they are in a position of power and have opportunity. Explaining away their crime with "who knows what we would do in their powerful position" is as bad as saying "boys will be boys" about date rapists.<br />I can, with 100% certainty, say that I am better than a sex offender and feel quite comfortable judging them. It is not my role to judge them in court and put them in prison, but once they've been found guilty, I feel alright saying, "That's disgusting and horrible and I hope they serve time."<br /><br />(Side-note: to be clear, I refer to convicted offenders, not those who are still awaiting legal judgment.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-38506831953997193912014-10-15T12:32:17.864-04:002014-10-15T12:32:17.864-04:00BTW I am very proud of the actions of the board of...BTW I am very proud of the actions of the board of directors of the shul. When credible allegations were made they did not allow the potential impact on the image of the shul to scare them off. They may have consulted a gadol about whether going to the police was correct, but if so either the gadol gave them permission or they did it anyway. When the time came for their test, they contacted the police and let the secular experts do what was right. Based on the information available at this time, I think they passed with flying colors. Kol HaKavod to them!Larry Lennhoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06578073969473815180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-59280293472924757142014-10-15T12:05:09.942-04:002014-10-15T12:05:09.942-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Larry Lennhoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06578073969473815180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-1494553427806423832014-10-15T10:28:24.946-04:002014-10-15T10:28:24.946-04:00Larry,
Your point is well taken. Yet in every sce...Larry,<br /><br />Your point is well taken. Yet in every scenario you mention, it is *God* who judges that individual (whether it be Chofni/ Pinchas, David, Reuven etc) more harshly via His prophet. <br /><br />Society has a duty to protect victims and to take all steps necessary to do that. But taking action to prevent further wrongdoing (assuming it is true) is not the same as judging a person and deciding that one is better than them/ can write them off. God or His prophet have that ability; I don't think the rest of us do.Chanahttp://curiousjew.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-76261092855184098722014-10-15T10:13:20.209-04:002014-10-15T10:13:20.209-04:00I was taught that Judaism (and Hashem) judged peop...I was taught that Judaism (and Hashem) judged people in positions of power more strictly than the common folk. <br /><br />Reuven simply moved Billah's couch, but it was treated as though he had slept with her. The things Moshe Rabbenu did that caused him to be denied entry to Eretz Yisrael would not have been a big deal if done by an ordinary person. Chazal say that David Hamelech did not sin at all, but that what he did do was judged as harshly as if he actually had committed adultery and murder.<br /><br />A society which is more forgiving of mistakes made by the powerful than those made by ordinary people causes corruption among the elites and cynicism and distrust among the common folk.Larry Lennhoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06578073969473815180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-19396071953015772992014-10-15T03:46:19.570-04:002014-10-15T03:46:19.570-04:00Anon 11:02,
In context, that means that we should...Anon 11:02,<br /><br />In context, that means that we should welcome homosexuals into our community even though very often their personal behavior is incompatible with our standards.<br /><br />I fail to see any relevance to the current news.Shlomonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-20667924445934069562014-10-15T00:08:53.207-04:002014-10-15T00:08:53.207-04:00Sure, Chana.
Sex must always include consent and c...Sure, Chana.<br />Sex must always include consent and choice. When you use the words "sex" or "sexual," and talk about people's various sexual desires as they relate to the temptations around them, you are conflating these crimes with an activity that is done by choice and with the consent of both parties. They are classified as "sex crimes" so that we will understand the nature of the crime and the danger the criminal poses.<br /><br />Rape, for example, is about power, not sex. In this kind of case, voyeurism is a compulsion linked with OCD and has been treated with the same treatments, and voyeurs are more likely to become violent than others. While the offender may experience what he feels is sexual gratification, it is important that we, as bloggers, don't paint these crimes as sexual to our readers.<br /><br />Otherwise, we will end up with a general public who say "well, this crime wasn't as bad as the violent rape" and then attempt to make decisions about how they will interact with an offender based on the level of the crime that was committed. To the victim, it feels like a violent assault, with or without the bruising.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-89302693430510905982014-10-14T23:40:31.523-04:002014-10-14T23:40:31.523-04:00Anon 11:32,
Definitely hear and respect your opin...Anon 11:32,<br /><br />Definitely hear and respect your opinion. Could you elaborate on what you mean when you say "these crimes are not actually sexual, but rather are assaults on the physical and emotional well-being of others"? <br /><br />I may be misunderstanding, but isn't the point of voyeurism to achieve sexual gratification through looking at the sexual stimulus (in this case, if true, the unclad woman in the shower)? Chanahttp://curiousjew.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-11132180147967556562014-10-14T23:32:42.551-04:002014-10-14T23:32:42.551-04:00I understand what you're trying to do here, bu...I understand what you're trying to do here, but no. Just no.<br />You are right in saying we must be careful how we speak about alleged offenders, as they have not yet been given their day in court, and we are not judge and jury.<br />However, there is a clear line when it comes to sexual offenses(these crimes are not actually sexual, but rather are assaults on the physical and emotional well-being of others).<br />99% of us, even in a person of power's position, would not have even seen the opportunity for a sexual crime or thought to be tempted by it. Offenders aren't offenders because they are helpless to the temptation in front of them. For them, there are pre-existing issues. Let's not muck up the matter.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-66518404357453369102014-10-14T23:02:13.652-04:002014-10-14T23:02:13.652-04:00Guess who wrote the following in 2001?
"Cont...Guess who wrote the following in 2001?<br /><br />"Contemporary Jewish organizations do Kiruv (outreach) work with individuals who violate many commandments. We must do the same with those whose failures are sexual areas. This is particularly true because of the all-pervasive nature of sexual desire and because of the constant encounter with sexual imagery that pervades our society."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com