tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post6354161465489932674..comments2024-03-18T03:40:39.185-04:00Comments on The Curious Jew: When I Can't Put My Ideals Into PracticeChanahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-80974996826377323322007-05-15T13:45:00.000-04:002007-05-15T13:45:00.000-04:00I just want to say that I feel lucky that I can re...I just want to say that I feel lucky that I can read your blog and watch a mind like yours at work, especially in such an interesting time as college. Regarding the topic, I think there are two distinct modern Orthodoxies -- one which is epitomized by R' Lamm et al, which is a philosophical position regarding the importance of madda and one which is, in practice, another denomination altogether without the stigma of actually being another denomination. (Duh, now I see you basically already said this in your other post.)<BR/><BR/>The latter form of modern Orthodoxy is the one I grew up in. The Rabbis, of course, belonged to the former camp as did perhaps a third of the community. The rest of us probably did in fact believe that halakha was "bunch of laws some biased men put together years ago, archaic and outdated." We believed in God and that halakha was the governing process of Orthodox Judaism, but we felt more free to substitute our own judgment for halakha in certain circumstances, the way one might run a red light at 3 in the morning out in the country with perfect visibility. Negiya, kol isha, tznius, and even parts of kashrut were pretty much up for discussion.<BR/><BR/>The interaction between the Rabbis, who are traditionally Orthodox, with the segment of the community which is de facto in another denomination is an interesting subject you might want to look into, especially historically. It used to be that the most knowledgeable rebbeim were known for their willingness to be lenient in their rulings in order to make things easier for their people. In my parents' generation, much of an Orthodox Rabbi's congregation was probably not even nominally Orthodox, and all kinds of compromises were made.<BR/><BR/>You see halakha as ultimately binding, but I believe that many Jews who consider themselves Orthodox have a more flexible relationship with it. In fact, I can think of a few circumstances in which the Rabbis explicitly made rulings on certain topics which a sizeable chunk of the community consciously rejected.Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-72598560824503146162007-05-15T13:02:00.000-04:002007-05-15T13:02:00.000-04:00Matt,I agree with you- that the presentation reall...Matt,<BR/><BR/>I agree with you- that the presentation really matters. Presentation is an art...Also, shomer negiah is probably not the best example, but it's the one that she and I discussed at length. It might be better to focus on the other point- her determining that because "these are new days" halakha will automatically change in the time of the Messiah- not a necessarily true point. There were others, as well- there were parts where it was simply not halakha but she believed it to be halakha.Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-71392856338914143172007-05-15T12:37:00.000-04:002007-05-15T12:37:00.000-04:00I probably shouldn't say this, but I have a short ...I probably shouldn't say this, but I have a short anecdote about an older couple I know. The man, though not a Chassid himself, was raised in a classic European Chassidishe household and had a traditional yeshiva upbringing. They are now in their 70's, but decades ago, when they were dating and considering getting married, they met with R' Moshe Feinstein to discuss their plans. <BR/><BR/>At the end of the discussion, his final response was: "I think you two should definitely get married . . . you're probably already holding hands." <BR/><BR/>Now, it may be tempting to ask questions like, "What did R' Moshe mean? What halachic implications can we derive from his statement? What would he say about modern Orthodox teens? How did he know what they were doing? How could he be dan l'chaf chovah? Or did he assume they were not doing it b'derech chibah?" and so on. But that is not the point. <BR/><BR/>The point is that R' Moshe did not treat something like shomer negiah in a neurotic, über-religious sort of way. In my humble opinion, one of the sources of distorted ideas of halacha is the attitude with which it is presented. <BR/><BR/>Rather than flesh out my opinion (no pun intended), I'll just leave this anecdote and observation to the judgment and contemplation of readers.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17762099779174385763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-55980858582334609772007-05-15T12:04:00.000-04:002007-05-15T12:04:00.000-04:00Chanah, I think that this is a very mature realiza...Chanah, I think that this is a very mature realization, but in a very real way, it isn't even half the point.<BR/><BR/>Sometimes what halacha demands is impossible. Halacha is full of grey areas. We are told that girls and boys are not supposed to touch at all before marriage. However, if you look at the halachic texts and their explanations, this is entirely chumra. This halacha is actualy rooted in the nida prohabition of "do not approach" and states clearly that "it is forbiden to touch a woman 'bederech chiba' while she is nidda". Thus one may touch a woman if she is either A: not nidda or B: if it isn't intended in a way of affection (bederech chibba).<BR/><BR/>That leaves for a considerable amount of give room in this halacha. Further we need clerification of the word "chibba". Does "chibba" mean in terms of caring affection, or does it specificaly mean intimate husband and wife type affections? these are issues that have to be very clearly deleniated to understand halacha. This could potentialy mean that it would be permissable for a girl who happens on a boy who is crying to give him a hug as comfort.<BR/><BR/>Now still doesn't mean that what the girl is doing is ok halachicaly, but that is the real interesting point of this. One can only ask a person to do so much before they burn out. Certainly one cannot ask a person to do everything to begin with either. There is a concept of "not yet" and sometimes when counseling people (youth especialy) you have to be forgiving and a little (not a lot) permissive, because they can and will make those mistakes anyway, and generaly if they do not make those mistakes, they will have serious problems later on in life. The phrase "give him just enough rope to hang him" comes to mind (as an undesirable action).<BR/><BR/>This is especialy true with regards to boys and girls issues. I have heard personal testimony, and even seen it that the restrictions placed on boys and girls are still not enough to keep them seperate, almost at all, and it actualy screws up alot of children who go through it. That isn't to say that the alternative is any better, but to say that society has forced these issues to become the monstrosities that they now are.<BR/><BR/>There are times where you have to take what you can get, and encourage them to do what they can do. Sometimes that means compromising, and this has been an issue in halacha ever since ancient times. I would guess that one would say that you cannot teach someone something until they are ready for it. To attempt to teach them this earlier would be to hurt them and damage them severely with guilt, remorse, and all kinds of other painfull feelings. You may even eject them from torah completely. It is for this reason That I think in some instances our yeshivos and schools are not forgiving enough of indiscressions made by the students. That is not to say that they should condone them, but I think that they can and should be understanding and forgiving, while at the same time making effort to help the child rather that outright rejecting him or her.<BR/><BR/>I think there is a phrase about "picking your battles wisely" that is quite appropriate. It's good that you've learned that lesson, but I think that it applies more widely than you realized.Looking Forwardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04876831969877780546noreply@blogger.com