tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post5255018201617455989..comments2024-03-18T03:40:39.185-04:00Comments on The Curious Jew: Being Gay In The Orthodox World: A Conversation with Members of the YU CommunityChanahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comBlogger118125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-80124587911121258042012-04-17T01:04:01.540-04:002012-04-17T01:04:01.540-04:00While I am sure these guys who "came out"...While I am sure these guys who "came out" are likeable guys, what's the point in the whole presentation? What if YU had an evening called "Being Orthodox and Into Bestiality", or "Being Orthodox and Into Treif"? It's exactly the same thing. Only that being gay has become such a popular topic in the US, and supporting gayness has become a litmus test of whether you are an enlightened soul or a neanderthal, that the evening was just an exercise in making the participants feel good about themselves. (And wasn't that a run-on sentence)... Just sayin'Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-32506947831823544032011-09-17T00:22:22.265-04:002011-09-17T00:22:22.265-04:00Great post...thanks for the reminder to blog about...Great post...thanks for the reminder to blog about the everyday things that people want to read. As a real estate agent, I too struggle with what to blog about. Thanks!<br /><br /><a href="http://www.lightourevent.com/" rel="nofollow">Event Lighting Services Los Angeles</a>Event Lighting Services Los Angeleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11470538855940804206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-38270682216902294212010-05-08T09:41:22.382-04:002010-05-08T09:41:22.382-04:00i'M gay!!!!!1i'M gay!!!!!1Lars Shalomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00889280301374934767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-7328724912524579982010-01-07T13:35:40.385-05:002010-01-07T13:35:40.385-05:00Both the transcript itself and the forum for discu...Both the transcript itself and the forum for discussing some of the related issues are worthy of many thanks. Thank you Chana for both.Menachemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10445383588656618568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-10329691884094298782010-01-06T06:48:43.800-05:002010-01-06T06:48:43.800-05:00Good Post...Good Post...Fake Transcripthttp://www.backalleypress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-29643959854680401432009-12-29T23:44:08.336-05:002009-12-29T23:44:08.336-05:00I wasn't able to attend the event, and I can&#...I wasn't able to attend the event, and I can't tell you how much it means to me to have a source like this transcript. This event, these people, and these speeches, have tremendous communal resonance, and are profoundly important to me on a personal level. YU could hardly have chosen a more important or a braver topic. <br /><br />The people who object to the transcript do so, not because they are interested in protecting the privacy or intellectual rights of the panelists, but because of how important the topic is, and of how scared it makes them. They are think this record will spark an honest and transparent conversation about sexuality, which is at the center of their personhood, and is therefore terrifying. I hope all intelligent and compassionate readers will see their resistance, as it is, as an indication of the centrality and profundity of the topic at hand. Although we encounter barriers, we can not stop talking!NSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-60018869147212557312009-12-29T08:25:17.149-05:002009-12-29T08:25:17.149-05:00In defense of Chana's editing Mr Josh, she was...In defense of Chana's editing Mr Josh, she was strictly following R. Blau's request, hence the errors in transcription. (remarkably few, I might add). But if she had been allowed to tape record it for later transcription, or had there been an official transcript, instead of YU praying that nobody would ever quote from this meeting and "shame" their good name - it obvioulsy would have been more accurate.alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03612321930953664020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-2054058360028428352009-12-29T00:15:27.709-05:002009-12-29T00:15:27.709-05:00Dear "concerned parent"
I resonated str...Dear "concerned parent"<br /><br />I resonated strongly with your comments; they bring the discussion back to its intended purpose and address the issue from a kind and fair perspective.<br /><br />I am a "gay YU student" and wish my parents would have the approach you suggested. I could not express my inner struggle with my family - the people who matter most to me in the world. It took two severe suicide attempts, one which very-nearly ended my life, to finally 'come out' to my family.(note: although the suicide attempt was very significantly due to my struggle with homosexual attractions-,it was also to due to other problems I was faced with at the time) The absolute terror and shame i felt for having these attractions, whilst never acting on them, was too difficult for me to handle.<br /><br />Having said that, i know that just because i went through such severe emotional stress that doesn't provide any justification for halachic (Jewish-legal) leniency, rather, I am fully conscious and accepting of the halachic proscription and have conceded to it because remaining an observant Orthodox Jew is of fundamental importance to me. What I needed, and WANT for future generations, is for public recognition of the existence of homosexuality in the orthodox community, and that there are representatives of the community (namely rabbis) who I can talk to and will be accepting of me, not my behaviors but me as young, vulnerable Jew. Maybe they won't be able to provide me with answers, but they can support me, in any way possible, without judgment. If I would have known that their are representatives of the community that are there for me- THAT would have made the difference. I might have been spared of all the ensuing grief, and near loss of my own life - if i were supported and made to realize that the community is not an entity that rejects me or isolates me.<br /><br />We need to be aware that this issue affects the core of our community; it affects the present, the many torn individuals of our community, so many of whom are utterly depressed and scared, believing that if anyone found about their sexuality- they might be shunned. Even moreso it will continue to affect the future generations to come. I believe that this is actually an issue of Pikuach Nefesh (saving of human-life). Think of the children who consider taking their own lives, then reconsider the importance of the issue. I know my stance is dramatic, but its not unrealistic.<br /><br />One more VERY important point: I am not saying that the pikuach Nefesh aspect is in ANY WAY a justification to break halacha or a reason to "revise halacha" to suit the needs of the community, rather, the importance lies in the absolute necessity to have this issue in the forefront of the orthodox community and the public acknowledgment to ensure that no Jew feels isolated or victimized for their feelings. Rabbi's: I needed you then, I need you now. We need you.<br /><br />And to those who are torn and scared: DON'T GIVE UP! I thank G-d each and EVERY day that He spared my life. I now realize the inherent value of my life and the many goals and relationships that i have attained and will continue to have... trust me, from someone who knows what it is like to live on the edge of life, THERE IS SO MUCH more to live for, there really is!!Plea to the orhodox worldnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-60785597237522103152009-12-28T20:43:15.957-05:002009-12-28T20:43:15.957-05:00Continued.....
The point is: No child should have...Continued.....<br /><br />The point is: No child should have to suffer the way our panelists suffered. Different solutions will be found by different individuals, both within and outside Orthodoxy—that’s the way it’s been and that won’t change. But, perhaps the isolation and emotional trauma could be reduced and more nefashot could be saved, if we started showing these students that we are “with them” during their more formative years.<br /><br />Why don’t we (and our educators) focus on that?<br />___________________________________<br />Footnote: (1) I do not wish to imply that your concerns are not serious, or deserving discussion; but, they are a side-issue here and should be debated separately in a sidebar to the main topic.Concerned Parentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-61389290696302473592009-12-28T20:41:12.083-05:002009-12-28T20:41:12.083-05:00I am a parent and a grandparent who is not related...I am a parent and a grandparent who is not related to any of the participants or to any of those who have posted comments (to the best of my knowledge). I have never written a blog or even posted a comment on a blog (it’s a generational thing), but I have been sufficiently moved by this Event @ YU and the ensuing discussion to be motivated to offer my humble comments. <br /><br />The overall feeling I take away from the histories and comments of the participants is that these young people have suffered incredible emotional PAIN and anguish during pre-pubescence, adolescence and young adulthood. Because they felt “different” in a way they feared and could not understand, they kept their feelings totally private. Consequently, they were without the support of family, school or even their closest friends. Surrounded by all of our familiar societal structures, they were really totally alone and isolated because there was no avenue they could find to reveal their most personal and fearsome concerns to a non-judgmental, supportive, caring person who would keep those concerns private while providing guidance and help.<br /><br />Maybe I am stating what is obvious to everyone, but it seems to me that the purpose of this event was to make us, as Orthodox Jews, aware of this suffering in our midst and to open a dialogue concerning how it can be addressed in the future.<br /><br />To those of you who are more concerned about the “ethics” or “morality” of posting an unauthorized and somewhat inaccurate transcription of the Event (and debating, ad nauseum, your arguments pros and con[1]): <br />In my opinion, you are hijacking or, at least, diverting the discussion from the real problem, namely:—<br />How can we help and support young Orthodox Jews during high school and college or whenever they become concerned about their sexual proclivities/inclinations, so that they have professional advice from someone who cares and has the tools to counsel them? (This doesn’t only have to include homosexuality; we all know kids are bothered about a variety of sexually-related concerns.)<br /><br />I am not an expert in this area and I don’t necessarily have a solution to this question. However, other childhood problems, such as abuse and molestation are presented in schools and students are told that if they experience these situations, they can and should discuss them confidentially with someone who can help. Similarly, students in our Jewish day schools could be told, in a supportive way, that if they had sexual feelings that bothered them, whether those feelings involved younger children, siblings or same-sex acquaintances, or anything else, there were designated counselors who are available to discuss their concerns in a confidential, non-judgmental encounter. If students were not betrayed by this system, hopefully sufficient confidence in the counseling could develop.<br /><br />An example of what can be accomplished with a change in attitude is the approach educators have developed to learning impaired children. In the past, children with Down’s syndrome and other greater and lesser impairments, were isolated and often institutionalized. Today, we try to integrate them, as much as possible, into the mainstream. Of course, these neurologically different children are not o'vair an issur d’oraita—but neither are the children who only think they might be attracted to individuals of the same gender. These students need acceptance, guidance and therapy, just like all others. This doesn’t mean accepting homosexual behavior forbidden by the Torah, anymore than we would accept the behavior of a child who molests his younger sibling. It means helping the student accept himself, with the realization that he or she, too, is part of Hashem’s creation, and, as it is for all of us, life is a struggle to cope with the nissyonot that Hashem provides for us.<br /> ...continued in the next postingConcerned Parentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-3278527063178028112009-12-28T19:29:48.816-05:002009-12-28T19:29:48.816-05:00I couldnt be there, but it is amazing to hear that...I couldnt be there, but it is amazing to hear that such a topic has finally been discussed, especially from teh points of view of 4 really amazing and enlightening voices. My heart goes out to them and their struggles, and every other frum guy or girl out there who has to go through the same such things.Shiranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-91236678665919067922009-12-27T03:49:47.745-05:002009-12-27T03:49:47.745-05:00Happy Jew:
I don't think Mourning Jew contradi...Happy Jew:<br />I don't think Mourning Jew contradicted him/her self at all. <br /><br />"You contradict yourself! On the one hand, you recognize Rabbi Blau's authority, and condemn Chana for making the transcript available against his instructions. But then on the other hand, you condemn YU for even holding the event."<br /><br />These two things are not mutually exclusive. He/she can recognize R' Blau's authority as a personal request by the rabbi to not have the event "recorded" while still condemning the institution for holding the event. I'm not saying I agree with Mourning Jew, but your logic/understanding of his quasi-valid points just doesn't make much sense. <br /><br />JessicaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-78715845393144652009-12-26T23:36:17.196-05:002009-12-26T23:36:17.196-05:00Hey Mourning Jew,
You contradict yourself! On th...Hey Mourning Jew,<br /><br />You contradict yourself! On the one hand, you recognize Rabbi Blau's authority, and condemn Chana for making the transcript available against his instructions. But then on the other hand, you condemn YU for even holding the event.<br /><br />So are you now condemning Rabbi Blau and his participation? Don't you recognize his authority to facilitate this event?<br /><br />How can anyone take your words seriously when they have inner contradictions?<br /><br />YU did the right thing by holding this event. And they did it the right way by having Rabbi Blau facilitate. And Chana did a tremendous service by publicizing it, so that everyone could see that homosexuality WAS NOT being condoned by YU. This event made homosexuality understood by a wider religious audience.<br /><br />If the other yeshivos want to misunderstand what happened and laugh, then let them. If they prefer to put their heads in the sand and pretend the problem doesn't exist, let them. YU is about facing challenges and finding the right path. If some people misunderstand, it's not YU's problem.Happy Jewnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-72060191661251574722009-12-26T23:14:23.588-05:002009-12-26T23:14:23.588-05:00Dear all:
1) It does not matter how you attempt t...Dear all:<br /><br />1) It does not matter how you attempt to justify the publication of this transcript, nothing changes the fact that IT IS WRONG. Plain and simple. C, you did/do (I've spoken to R' Blau) not have permission to write/post this; any reasons you have given for doing so are false and only masquerade your true intentions of increased readership and attention. For example, you site that neither the Commie or Observer have the space to allocate to a lengthy transcript, yet, I am fairly certain that both have a sufficiently accommodating online presence as well. Additionally, one of your ignorant readers seems to think that it is not our (peoples) place to notify you of your wrong but rather a job solely left for g-d. To this, I say: wrong. Again. We are the Jewish People, one nation and one unit. If we don't look out for each other, we will never see mashaich. <br /><br />2) This event has turned YU into a mockery of the orthodox world; No more, will YU be respected as a Torah learning institution, but simply an institution that modifies and adapts its' religious approaches and beliefs based solely on the whims of the masses. <br /><br />3) What would The Rav say!? I think he'd be appalled that this event even took place, let alone in YU. <br /><br />There are places to do things, and there are places not to do things. This was not the place. <br /><br />4) The event was NOT as advertised; instead of being a forum and space for exposing a certain struggle (which I agree, should be pursued), it became a lengthy declaration of acceptance into a world in which there is NO room for homosexuality. If people are to question something so explicitly stated in the Torah, it is only a matter of time until the "whole wall comes crashing down."<br /><br />5) I don't know what the solution is to the homosexual-Jewish conundrum, but what I do know is that is/was extremely irresponsible to hold an event which was completely one sided (essentially condoning Jewish homosexuality). <br /><br />6) There is no turning back from this; YU's name IS tarnished in the eyes of the frum world. <br /><br />- A Mourning JewAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-40719087315586972442009-12-26T19:45:40.257-05:002009-12-26T19:45:40.257-05:00Oh and I also would like to say that only Hashem h...Oh and I also would like to say that only Hashem has the right to judge us. We should only think the best, especially of our fellow Jews and as my gay friend said so well- "when you see a girl and a boy holding hands do you assume their sleeping together? No you just say awe and think its adorable" ya, these are all souls that have been given challenges in life we would never be able to overcome, never be able to live with! May we dan everyone le'kaf zchut and love every fellow Jew no matter what!Daniellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01946431866770290183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-81541969960318260182009-12-26T19:39:20.018-05:002009-12-26T19:39:20.018-05:00I would just like to say thank you so much for pos...I would just like to say thank you so much for posting this. So many people who didnt even know this event even happened benefited very much from it. I know that the community should deal with this more openly and compassionately. This is amazing and alot of chizuck to anyone involved!Daniellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01946431866770290183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-66616363824778750902009-12-25T22:07:20.633-05:002009-12-25T22:07:20.633-05:00all these comments about not transcribing the talk...all these comments about not transcribing the talk seems pretty ironic given the panelists' discussion of being silenced, and how much that has hurt them. <br /><br />Great job, I love that at least one person on this blog has had their mind changed by this. Statistically people who know someone gay are much more likely to be accepting of homosexuality than someone who does not, and by posting this you are allowing many people to "know" people who are gay, insofar as they know part of their life story.<br /><br />Also - someone above mentioned the identical twin/ genetic factor of being gay- according to the studies I have seen if there is a 60% chance that an identical twin will be gay if the other one is gay, and the theorized reason for why it is not 100% is that the twins may have been exposed to different hormones in utero, depending on their placement in the womb.Abandoning Edenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12696116071749613265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-79830080227030688802009-12-25T16:55:22.926-05:002009-12-25T16:55:22.926-05:00Dear Chana,
Thank you for making the change.
I n...Dear Chana,<br /><br />Thank you for making the change.<br /><br />I never thought that it was done intentionally. I just wanted to make sure that your transcription was as accurate as possible, and having it read by someone so intimately involved with the speaker and the subject made it all the more important.<br /><br />We have to bear in mind that the message has to get out to as many people as possible and you did so in a very timely manner, even before the videos came online.<br /><br />Yasher koach.<br /><br />Josh's FatherJosh's Fathernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-16639812442485224552009-12-25T14:50:56.341-05:002009-12-25T14:50:56.341-05:00Josh's Father,
I apologize for not getting do...Josh's Father,<br /><br />I apologize for not getting down all the words and therefore changing the meaning. I have fixed this post to reflect the words that were really said, as you quoted them in your comment. <br /><br />However, I certainly did not deliberately edit your son's words in order to cast you in a negative light. I am not sure why you would assume I would do that. It was an honest mistake and I am sorry about it. <br /><br />I am always open to corrections and if anyone else feels that I have misrepresented them, I'd be happy to fix it.Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-16852201920441615442009-12-25T10:02:09.160-05:002009-12-25T10:02:09.160-05:00To Josh's father-
Don't take it out on Cha...To Josh's father-<br />Don't take it out on Chana. Deal with it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-29122691642647342009-12-25T08:10:50.703-05:002009-12-25T08:10:50.703-05:00Dear Anonymous,
I thank you and I am sure Chana th...Dear Anonymous,<br />I thank you and I am sure Chana thanks you for being her apologist. <br />If one publishes what is claimed to be a 'TRANSCRIPT' then it should be done properly.<br />If it is done as an edited transcript then it should be stated as such.<br />And finally, if it is edited and the meaning changes as a result, then it becomes an editorial.<br />I would respectfully ask you, anonymous, to reread what she wrote quoting Josh and watch what he actually said. Those additional 20 words totally changes the tone and meaning of his words.<br />Rabbi Blau specifically asked for this not to happen and it did. <br />When I first read the transcript I was upset to read what my son had spoken. When I watched the video later that night, I realized that what he said and how he said it were totally different from the way Chana "transcribed" it.<br /><br />Josh's FatherJosh's Fathernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-80748948132139545162009-12-25T00:30:01.848-05:002009-12-25T00:30:01.848-05:00Josh's Father:
Chana clearly stated the follo...Josh's Father:<br /><br />Chana clearly stated the following in this post:"....Now more than ever I want it to be clear that this is as accurate a transcription as I could render but there definitely are parts that are missing. This is not verbatim. It is unofficial. It would be wrong to treat every word as divine. Any and all mistakes are mine. I would like to offer a forum for people to learn and to discuss, but not a forum for people to bash, malign or otherwise hurt others"<br /><br />Simply an fyi.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-33077349102109767042009-12-24T23:53:25.576-05:002009-12-24T23:53:25.576-05:00Chana,
You worked hard at publishing a transcript...Chana,<br /><br />You worked hard at publishing a transcript of YU's event..."Being Gay in an Orthodox World'" but as Rabbi Blau mentioned and pleaded in his opening remarks asking for recordings and videos not to be taken (so we can infer he also meant transcripts, by default)for the simple reason that sound bites can be used out of context.<br />In this case, he was absolutely correct.<br />When the first panelist Josh, spoke about his parents and his father in particular, he relayed a story about a visit to New York and the fact that his father snickered when he saw a gay couple walking hand in hand. <br />You write "My parents have been really supportive. After I came out to people my father sent me an email apologizing-all these years I've had to struggle without my parents."<br />What Josh says is "my parents have been really fantastic, really supportive people. After I came out to them, my father sent me an email apologizing, and his apology was that all of these years, I've had to struggle without parents who were there with me struggling and worrying along the way."<br />The way in which you transcribed and edited Josh's comments made it sound that the apology was a result of the "snicker".<br />In fact, you write 30 words..when in fact Josh spoke 50 words.<br />Rabbi Blau was correct in his plea. Chana if you are going to do the job, then do it right and leave out the editing.<br />Josh's FatherJosh's Fathernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-61109694390921366082009-12-24T21:55:29.726-05:002009-12-24T21:55:29.726-05:00Thanks so much for posting this! I have passed thi...Thanks so much for posting this! I have passed this along to people who are hopefully interested.Jonah Rankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01891663992989705649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-18640470513628436712009-12-24T19:01:43.915-05:002009-12-24T19:01:43.915-05:00Thank you for posting this! I find it's very i...Thank you for posting this! I find it's very important to speak up, express legitimate concerns, and feelings. All within good reason.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com