tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post524734245345641842..comments2024-03-18T03:40:39.185-04:00Comments on The Curious Jew: Bogus AcademiaChanahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-33062874086841909382008-08-11T14:41:00.000-04:002008-08-11T14:41:00.000-04:00Chana,it's time for a new post.Thanks.Chana,it's time for a new post.<BR/>Thanks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-41734869024675187112008-08-11T01:43:00.000-04:002008-08-11T01:43:00.000-04:00"It was (and is?) quite common to play with the na..."It was (and is?) quite common to play with the names of leaders and politicians "<BR/><BR/>Look at the poem in the beginning of I, Claudius - Caesar means hairy man - w/o hair (he was bald)...<BR/><BR/>And then there are any number of jokes based on Cicero's name (chick-pea in Latin).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-57498648514121221262008-08-08T12:11:00.000-04:002008-08-08T12:11:00.000-04:00But the way, Yuval's discussion of dibbur and logo...But the way, Yuval's discussion of dibbur and logos is based on over a century of research, which should be assessed on its own merits. See the list in Daniel Boyarin, Borderlines (2004), p. 300 fn. 42.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-10267569687902304482008-08-07T11:31:00.000-04:002008-08-07T11:31:00.000-04:00Dr. Secunda,Thanks for coming on down to the blogo...Dr. Secunda,<BR/>Thanks for coming on down to the blogosphere and shmoozing about these issues with those of us who are curious!<BR/><BR/>If you get a chance, maybe you could check out my blog. I'd be very appreciative.Baruchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08051421355654178857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-20386348253288469922008-08-07T10:21:00.000-04:002008-08-07T10:21:00.000-04:00"that is no reason for Yuval to go discussing it a..."that is no reason for Yuval to go discussing it as a fact without addressing the points of rabbinic hebrew as you pointed out."<BR/><BR/>Actually, the other aspect of the scholarly habit of citation is that Yuval would expect the reader to look up the Hasan-Rokem article that makes the connection between titus=yitush and should do so. <BR/><BR/>"with regards to the haggadah, what does that have to do with anything,are you saying the quote from the hagada and Yuvals "parallel" is something that makes an iota of sense?" <BR/><BR/>Yes. While I don't buy into Yuval's method of reading which sees polemic everywhere, I do think that there is a startling correspondence between:<BR/>Titus=Yitush in the Jewish folktale, and Vespasian=Vespa (Lat. wasp). A perusal through any old baby-naming dictionary will tell you that the Vespasian is: "From the Roman cognomen Vespasianus, derived either from Latin vesper meaning "west" or "evening" or vespa meaning "wasp". This was the name of a 1st-century Roman emperor, Titus Flavius Vespasianus, the founder of the Flavian dynasty."<BR/>It was (and is?) quite common to play with the names of leaders and politicians (just look at the brilliant if tasteless front- covers of the NY post and Daily News) and even construct narratives and folktales from them.<BR/>Thus, the fact that Der Wilde Mann tells a Christian tale about wasps nesting in Vespasian's head (see Yuval, p. 41), which almost certainly derives from Vespasian=Vesta, and the Bavli tells a story about another flying insect invading the roman ruler that is hinted to in his name, is a pretty strong parallel. Also, as you can see in the footnotes, this is not Yuval's hidush. Indeed, this whole section is probably the strongest part in the book.<BR/>However, I've found that it is almost impossible to convince someone about what is intellectually "convincing"!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-47673659793664311722008-08-05T12:11:00.000-04:002008-08-05T12:11:00.000-04:00For the record, my comment had nothing to do with ...For the record, my comment had nothing to do with limudies kodesh versus limudie chol.<BR/><BR/>It was a question of why do you expect more out of "professors" than anybody else?<BR/><BR/><I>On the contrary, I attempt to look at every source through a critical lens, no matter their religious affiliation or lack thereof</I>...taking this one more step why does their academic status matter?Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08512231582715592098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-28171087426612174342008-08-05T11:28:00.000-04:002008-08-05T11:28:00.000-04:00ssecunda: notice Chana threw that in as a side poi...ssecunda: notice Chana threw that in as a side point and did not use that as a pointed criticism- obviously they may sound the same, but that is no reason for Yuval to go discussing it as a fact without addressing the points of rabbinic hebrew as you pointed out. with regards to the haggadah, what does that have to do with anything,are you saying the quote from the hagada and Yuvals "parallel" is something that makes an iota of sense? and Chana did not say she has a problem with wild theories, she said that to present it in the way he does is disingenuous and dishonest on the part of Yuval as well as the publisherAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-14365058804322689012008-08-05T10:58:00.000-04:002008-08-05T10:58:00.000-04:00ssecunda said... R" DR" Shai Secunda?KTJoel Richssecunda said... <BR/><BR/><BR/>R" DR" Shai Secunda?<BR/><BR/>KT<BR/>Joel RichAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-55958521717796202552008-08-05T10:07:00.000-04:002008-08-05T10:07:00.000-04:00Just came across this wonderful blog! A critical e...Just came across this wonderful blog! <BR/><BR/>A critical eye is of course laudable. Still, two important points. You assume that this book is written by an esteemed and respected professor. Most in the field recognize that Yuval's work of late has been off the deep end. Also, you seem to be unaware of the politics of the scholarly habit of citing prior works. Galit Hasan-Rokem is quoted not because anything she says must be true, rather because Yuval accepts her thesis and gives her credit. By the way, matter of the spelling of yitush/ titus, is immaterial. These stories would have been created and transmitted orally. To assess the parallel you need to have a background in Rabbinic Hebrew, as well as babylonian and palestinian aramaic phonology. I think Galit's claim is actually worth considering.<BR/><BR/>As for your comments in #2, here I think a basic understanding of the NT and Early Christianity would serve you well. There is an organic relationship between Matthew's comments and Jewish practice at the Seder. I think this is obvious.<BR/><BR/>Keep up the critical eye - but be careful to critique resopnsably and not assume that Yisrael Yuval's scholarship is representative of anything real going on in academic Jewish studies. <BR/><BR/>For a related treatment I highly recommend Peter Schaefer's Jesus in the Talmud - though you will come across similarly wild claims!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-27562287116871504422008-08-04T19:07:00.000-04:002008-08-04T19:07:00.000-04:00Izgad, my former classmate and Joel Rich,Ideally, ...Izgad, my former classmate and Joel Rich,<BR/><BR/>Ideally, every educator should have a competent grasp of the material which he is teaching and be able to say "I don't know" if he truly does not know something. I have had unfortunate experiences with Limudei Kodesh teachers and therefore no longer expect them to know very much (although it depends who they are- I expect the established teacher to know more than the recent seminary graduate.) I was only evincing my disappointment with academics who are not up to snuff; that does not mean I don't take Jewish teachers to task as well. On the contrary, I attempt to look at every source through a critical lens, no matter their religious affiliation or lack thereof.Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-90811792648834411992008-08-04T18:45:00.000-04:002008-08-04T18:45:00.000-04:00Izgad,are you and I reading the same posts by Chan...Izgad,are you and I reading the same posts by Chana? If yes,then your perception of them is different from mine.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-33552305897890160102008-08-04T18:39:00.000-04:002008-08-04T18:39:00.000-04:00Chana's former classmateJoel raised an important q...Chana's former classmate<BR/><BR/>Joel raised an important question considering the glowing posts Curious Jew recently wrote about the Haredi world. She moved from lyrical praises of the Haredi world to vitriolic attacks on academics. Notice that she did more than attack Yuval. She also made some fairly generalized remarks about the academic world.Izgadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03869626126435460209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-78433201705129211182008-08-04T17:35:00.000-04:002008-08-04T17:35:00.000-04:00Joel Rich, I attended the same BY High school as C...Joel Rich,<BR/> I attended the same BY High school as Chana and can tell you without a doubt that Chana does hold all limudei kodesh teachers to the same standard. Chana takes education very seriously and it doesn't matter if its secular or not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-41944639955907522692008-08-04T17:26:00.000-04:002008-08-04T17:26:00.000-04:00g raises an interesting question - do you hold lim...g raises an interesting question - do you hold limudei kodesh teachers to the same standard?<BR/>KT<BR/>Joel RichAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-32429165908495642642008-08-04T08:20:00.000-04:002008-08-04T08:20:00.000-04:00I hold professors to certain standards, and am ups...I hold professors to certain standards, and am upset when they don't match up to them.<BR/>---------<BR/><BR/>Why?<BR/><BR/>Seriously, why "professors" any more than anybody else?Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08512231582715592098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-71946349441762632812008-08-04T07:17:00.000-04:002008-08-04T07:17:00.000-04:00I'm ready for a new post.Thanks.I'm ready for a new post.<BR/>Thanks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-71485574787346908532008-08-03T23:30:00.000-04:002008-08-03T23:30:00.000-04:00you mention an interesting point in your response ...you mention an interesting point in your response chana people at times aren't cracked up to what there supposed to be we see them do one thing and out of either them needing to change for improvement or through being someone there not go another way kinda sad that happens but at the end of the day we need to see people good have offer and for really who they are in portrayal to the world<BR/>that Zocheh good uplift us good see<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your wise words<BR/><BR/>Ben RosenfeldAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-52188952146886482702008-08-03T15:54:00.000-04:002008-08-03T15:54:00.000-04:00"Mary had a little lamb 1750, chad gadya 1300.""Wh...<I>"Mary had a little lamb 1750, chad gadya 1300."</I><BR/><BR/><I>"Why the hell doesn't this false and idiot statement, to a level worthy of the above mentioned scholar, get a lulei demistafina?"</I><BR/><BR/>Is there anyone else in the room who thought, lulei demistafina, that I was being SERIOUS???CJ Srullowitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01851508109666827492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-73844165773163963942008-08-03T13:11:00.000-04:002008-08-03T13:11:00.000-04:00old friend,You know me very well, and are always r...old friend,<BR/><BR/>You know me very well, and are always right on with your assessments. I don't know if there is a particular reason you choose to remain anonymous, but if not, I'd love to know who you are (you can email me.)<BR/><BR/>everyone else except my cousin,<BR/><BR/>Unlike the rest of you, I hold professors to certain standards, and am upset when they don't match up to them.<BR/><BR/>my cousin,<BR/><BR/>I love you and will continue this conversation with you via a different medium. ;-)Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-1357612481028192172008-08-03T12:55:00.000-04:002008-08-03T12:55:00.000-04:00Nevertheless, I have recently been taught (thank y...Nevertheless, I have recently been taught (thank you, Jordan) to read everything with a more critical eye.<BR/>===========================<BR/>Chana,<BR/>Could you expand on this thought a bit, is this critical eye limited to reading academia or does it extend to observing the world around you.<BR/>KT<BR/>Joel RichAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-84890029982787817302008-08-03T10:07:00.000-04:002008-08-03T10:07:00.000-04:00Second, you failed to mention another part of the ...Second, you failed to mention another part of the Hagaddah that was lifted directly from a secular source. Chad Gadyah as we all know is nothing more than a Jewish take on "Mary had a little lamb."<BR/><BR/>Why the hell doesn't this false and idiot statement, to a level worthy of the above mentioned scholar, get a lulei demistafina?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-20892029544376075782008-08-03T09:31:00.000-04:002008-08-03T09:31:00.000-04:00>Second, you failed to mention another part of ...>Second, you failed to mention another part of the Hagaddah that was lifted directly from a secular source. Chad Gadyah as we all know is nothing more than a Jewish take on "Mary had a little lamb."<BR/><BR/>Mary had a little lamb 1750, chad gadya 1300.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-32641186902277562282008-08-03T02:02:00.000-04:002008-08-03T02:02:00.000-04:00are you alive? i wrote to you twice in facebook an...are you alive? i wrote to you twice in facebook and gmail so i will try here if it will get your attention! where are you for tishea b'av? do you want to come for this shabbos and spent sunday at my house for tishea b'av? please call or email me thank you!Stubborn and Stronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17343902285678273948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-73043053066191683422008-08-03T00:44:00.000-04:002008-08-03T00:44:00.000-04:00“… just goes to show that simply because something...“… just goes to show that simply because something is academia does not make it true, or right, or mean that the researcher has done his research appropriately.”<BR/><BR/>Curious Jew<BR/><BR/>Who claims that just because something is written by an academic it is true, right or that the researcher has done his work properly? Not even academics claim this. Academics make a living by ripping into each other. In a sense they are the human equivalents of piranhas. <BR/>Yisroel Yuval is a very controversial scholar. He makes a lot of very interesting arguments, though they are often quite speculative. You might have an easier time with his work if you think of him as a theorist, suggesting possible lines of enquiry and not someone dealing with hard evidence. He is the sort of person that you are supposed to go: "what the f#%$ has he been smoking? I want some!" <BR/>Yuval is best known for an essay he wrote back in 1993 on the blood libel. He argued that the charge of ritual murder originated in the wake of the first crusade. Christians saw Jews murder their own children in order to arouse God’s wraith against the gentile nations and assumed that Jews were also out to murder Christian children. The entire next issue of Zion was devoted to publishing responses. The essay is a lot of fun. If you can handle the Hebrew you should definitely read it.Izgadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03869626126435460209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-31289574425050147402008-08-03T00:36:00.000-04:002008-08-03T00:36:00.000-04:00Chana,First off, you should not have been at all s...Chana,<BR/><BR/>First off, you should not have been at all surprised at the shoddiness of the material, as everything you quoted was, lulei demistafina, published in a BOOK. I mean, it's not like this stuff was published on a BLOG, where all is true and flawless.<BR/><BR/>Second, you failed to mention another part of the Hagaddah that was lifted directly from a secular source. Chad Gadyah as we all know is nothing more than a Jewish take on "Mary had a little lamb."<BR/><BR/>Talk about needing to do your own research. Sheesh!CJ Srullowitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01851508109666827492noreply@blogger.com