tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post5152988207938848432..comments2024-03-18T03:40:39.185-04:00Comments on The Curious Jew: The Kosher Quandary: Ethics and KashrutChanahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-59766210935353766682008-12-14T12:33:00.000-05:002008-12-14T12:33:00.000-05:00This is a modification of a Hirhurim comment.It se...This is a modification of a Hirhurim comment.<BR/><BR/>It seems to me that the OU (and other kashrut agencies) are hoist by their own petards in this. For many years they have been certifying products that don't actually need a hechsher. As I understand it, the reasoning goes something like this:<BR/><BR/>A company thinks its customers think that "kosher" means "we answer to a higher standard" (higher quality, cleaner, purer, more ethical,) and therefore will be more likely to buy a product if it's certified kosher. So the company contacts Kash-Rus-R-Us (henceforth KRRU) for supervision.<BR/><BR/>KRRU has the option of saying, "well that product is intrinsically kosher, you don't need our services." Instead, it says, "sure, we'll take the money and certify the product." <BR/><BR/>A naive person might ask "why?" "Well, it will raise the profile of our hechsher, help us hire more mashgichim, and help pay for supervision of other products which will help our overall operations. Anyway, they came to us."*<BR/><BR/>(The vast majority of customers for kosher products aren't Jewish. Probably less true for meat, but I know of non-Jews who buy kosher meat for the "higher standard" reason.)<BR/><BR/>At that point, KRRU has, in my view, obligated itself to its client' customers to make sure that the products KRRU certifies are, in fact answering to a higher standard.<BR/><BR/>Doing so does may well involve the complications that were mentioned by the panelists and some commentators above.<BR/><BR/>But isn't not doing so once you've accepted the money geneivat da'at, or at least aiding and abetting the company's geneivat da'at? <BR/><BR/>If KRRU tries to evade the issue by saying "technical kashrut (zeh l'chud v'zeh l'chud) is all we're interested in," it is in effect saying "kosher is one thing, that 'higher standard' stuff -- well, if those fools think it means our client is any better than any other company in the industry, we'll let them think our client's products are special it if that'll make them want to buy them. But we won't actually do anything special to justify what a bunch of idiots think. I mean, the government regulates all that stuff anyway."<BR/><BR/>When that attitude comes out, as it is bound to, what else is it but a chillul Hashem?<BR/><BR/>* I once asked the OU "why certify eggs if I still should check for bloodspots even on certified eggs?"<BR/> The OU's answer was extremely informative, but basically came down to "well, wouldn't you feel more comfortable if there's an OU on your eggs? The answer also stated "You can be sure that the OU, being that it has to protect its reputation for purity and quality, thoroughly inspected their plants to assure that these plants – adhered to the basic laws as demanded by the department of agriculture."<BR/>In other words, according to the OU's spokesman, the OU not only relies on the government regarding safety and sanitation issues, but <I>audits its supervisees' compliance with the government.</I> So why not audit compliance with, say, labor, environmental and financial regulations?YoelBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05799351102321248350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-77392998753767269072008-12-14T01:27:00.000-05:002008-12-14T01:27:00.000-05:00Sorry my first post got on without an explanation....Sorry my first post got on without an explanation. Not sure how that happened.<BR/>Anyways,<BR/>1)They say they want to ensure that workers are treated ethically. However, when you get down to it, that's not what they want. They want to ensure that workers are payed minimum wage, and that they are treated according to other legal standards. These standards are not ethical ones, they are legal. These issues are under the jurisdiction of the government. <BR/>2) These standards are not objectively ethical. They are the social norms, and as such we should morally be bound to them. However, it is incorrect to assume it is anything more than that. A classic example which was discussed was child labor. In halacha, halacha encourages teaching your child an umanut, which is specifically physical labor. Halacha is probably refering to someone in their early teens. In the time of the Gemara that was the norm. Clearly have a child work the fields now would be problematic nowadays, but only because thay would be a violataion of social norms, unless you claim that American legal standards affect what was moral 1500 years ago.<BR/>3)To add to that point, what if one state has a higher minimin wage than another. Is the one with a lower minimum wage less moral. Clearly not. If a NY store pays the minimum wage of another state, it's violating the law,not ethics. If so, Tav HaYosher is just ensuring that stores keep the law.<BR/>4Purely ethical issues can not be monitered. For example, according to halacha, wronging someone verbally in worse than wronging him monetarily. Unless I'm mistaken, no one claiming that we should deny a store the tav hayosher because he screams at his workers. <BR/>-Just be honest, what you want to do is moniter ethics that fall under the rubric of the law. That's all you can do. If so, why does that help more than informing the authorites if you notice such a violation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-60844306895989612262008-12-14T01:10:00.000-05:002008-12-14T01:10:00.000-05:00In all honesty I agree that it is important that w...In all honesty I agree that it is important that we do everything we can to ensure ethical treatment of workers, but there are severe logical flaws in the way Uri L'Tzedek has proposed doing that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-18354051277345650622008-12-11T21:14:00.000-05:002008-12-11T21:14:00.000-05:00Michoel,I agree with you very much that there is a...Michoel,<BR/><BR/>I agree with you very much that there is a level of ritual kashrut unaffected by other points. As someone who has increasingly been learning more about Uri L'tzedek--again, the organization Shmuly is from-- and their campaign, though, I urge you to do the same. They are not confusing the actual dinim of kashrut with the ethical questions as in your scenario, but rather pointing out that we do still have the obligation to act ethically on top of eating food prepared in a kosher manner. (See my above responses on why, in that case, their campaign is currently working with restaurants/the kosher food industry--it's mostly practical). The problems you describe might be true of another organization (though I don't really know much about them, so I couldn't say), they are not of this one.<BR/><BR/>As to where to draw the line--you're certainly right, there could be cases without clear lines. But on the whole, there are some things going on that we definitely do know are unacceptable, and we can absolutely start with those. My understanding has been that Uri Ltzedek's campaign is using legal guidelines as a minimum that employers should live up to. While asking for minimum wage vs. living wage and other such questions are certainly debatable, legal guides are a sensible place to start (it is the law, after all). And, the fact that we're not sure exactly where to go should not mean we do not at all do a minimum we could. <BR/><BR/>Again, I really do recommend that you (or anyone else reading this) learn more about Uri Ltzedek and what they are doing. The more I have done so, the more pleased I have been.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-90143380401108711112008-12-11T19:40:00.000-05:002008-12-11T19:40:00.000-05:00Bet you guys didn't know this, but the NY Times wa...Bet you guys didn't know this, but the NY Times was there!<BR/><BR/>Here is the link to the article: <BR/>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/11/nyregion/11kosher.html?emGregory Pearlmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10330790690217089639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-57371933600941071552008-12-11T15:59:00.000-05:002008-12-11T15:59:00.000-05:00Hello Sam and Dman,Sam: I don't disagree with you ...Hello Sam and Dman,<BR/>Sam: I don't disagree with you but who and where is the line going to be drawn? If case A is clearly unethical, case B is not. <BR/><BR/>Dman, DDMD doesn't effect kashrus. And we are not smarter than the Ribbono Shel Olam. If, let's say, one who eats treif b'farhesia, is pasul l'eidus, and now the entire world adopts the hechsher tzedek idea, so what is the din of someone that eats meat that he knows is kasher but does not have a hechsher tzedek? To argue that hechsher tzedek has the ability to come and be posul his eidus is asking for a lot of problems. Maybe he was and eid by someones kiddushin. I am just throwing out ideas that need to be thought about.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-19048867668575244132008-12-11T15:40:00.000-05:002008-12-11T15:40:00.000-05:00Michoel,The concern of a lot of people--and this i...Michoel,<BR/><BR/>The concern of a lot of people--and this is what Shmuly's organization is currently addressing--has not been whether or not to hire these workers, but how they are treated once they are hired. Illegal immigrants have the same rights as workers under US laws, but would be afraid to go to the authorities if they are abused, meaning they are particularly vulnerable..<BR/><BR/>So, you have workers (legal or illegal) working for well under minimum wage, or not getting paid on time/not getting paid overtime, or in some cases even sexually/otherwise harrassed. I think we can all agree fairly well that this is unethical, and whatever their situation would be otherwise has no bearing whatsoever on our obligation to stop this kind of treatment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-78203650615087408232008-12-11T15:34:00.000-05:002008-12-11T15:34:00.000-05:00Michoel:You do not appear to have considered dina ...Michoel:<BR/><BR/>You do not appear to have considered dina d'malchuta dina and the Chillul Hashem emanating from the Postville situation in your analysis.Dorron Katzinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08275399228339470400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-60338301535830374502008-12-11T15:30:00.000-05:002008-12-11T15:30:00.000-05:00some of the comments here are a bit silly. Ethics...some of the comments here are a bit silly. Ethics is a halachic issue, of course. But kashrus has it's own dinim. And whose ethics? Maybe hiring illegals is a great act of chesed. Does anyone force them to take those jobs? So maybe, given a choice between not hiring illegals (or a 15 year old in need of money) and hiring them and allowing them to buy food, maybe the ethical imperative is to hire them. Prove that it isn't! Do mixing ill-defined "ethics" into kashrus is a very bad idea.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-32971976092485286022008-12-11T01:47:00.000-05:002008-12-11T01:47:00.000-05:00In case anyone is interested, The New York Times c...In case anyone is interested, The New York Times covered the event:<BR/>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/11/nyregion/11kosher.html?scp=1&sq=Ethics%20and%20Kashrut&st=cseEilu Ve'Eilu Fellowshiphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07685468352858669349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-4872241604104008292008-12-10T21:50:00.000-05:002008-12-10T21:50:00.000-05:00Perhaps an answer to your question (which I find o...Perhaps an answer to your question (which I find odd was not brought up by the responder to your question) is that frum Jews are involved with the Kosher food industry. We need to begin by some in-house cleaning before moving on. Part of the issue is that the owners of the kosher food companies are acting in issur and committing aveiros themselves...just as a frum Jew should not sell meat that has not been shechted properly, so too he must not sell products that have been produced through negligence of other halachos. Whether they be food or shoes. I'd venture to guess that there are more frum Jews involved in the food business at many levels (raw materials, slaughterhouses, producers, factories, restaurants, grocery stores, etc.) than in the shoemaking business. And even if this statement were incorrect, namely, that there are not so many frum Jews involved in food production, those who are involved in it are easier to reach and easier to reform through these measures. Contrary to Anonymous of 12-10 at 2:25AM, it is, in fact, based on both Jewish values and halacha, and, dare I say, universal values that transcend time and location(not "liberal social values we, nebach, got from secular culture"). Exploiting human beings in the manner that many are exploited today, physically, mentally, emotionally, financially, or, Ch"V sexually, is just plain wrong. Any argument along the lines of "it's better than the alternative" is a morally relativist argument--are we to say that how humans are to be treated depends on what the other option is? Am I, as an alternative to the worse option, to simply imitate them but make it slightly better? "In job X, they would have whipped you payed you 46 cents an hour. Bu we are better than that...we shall slap you and pay you 50 cents." Surely, as frum Jews, we do not believe in moral relativism such as this. I'm sure Shmuly can quote you the sources.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-62283745994455334352008-12-10T16:28:00.000-05:002008-12-10T16:28:00.000-05:00zach says, "Shafran makes me ashamed of Orthodoxy....zach says, "Shafran makes me ashamed of Orthodoxy." Take it easy. It's not just you. Lots of regular folk agree with you and just ignore him.Tzvee Zahavyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15833902273722124103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-20437225928394332732008-12-10T15:56:00.000-05:002008-12-10T15:56:00.000-05:00"why just this? Why stop here?...What about unplea..."why just this? Why stop here?...What about unpleasant things like Eved Knaani or selling your daughter into slavery?"<BR/><BR/>Are you playing with a full deck? You are comparing exploitation of poor workers with dinei torah that are all with chesed and rachamin? what do you want, you want to throttle "unpleasant" halachos? maybe we should shorten the niddah cycle? If you don't like judaism there are plenty of other religions you can go join.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-27349631692542778732008-12-10T15:44:00.000-05:002008-12-10T15:44:00.000-05:00I was personally impressed that ANYONE could get t...I was personally impressed that ANYONE could get those four people in the same room! Hazzaq U'Barukh to the organizers- Simha and Gilah. <BR/><BR/>I think the points were well taken but i don't think there was a strong emphasis on unity. After the panel everyone parted on their own ways! There was no huddle by all 4 panelists, with them putting thier hands in the chanting Sedeq! or Sedeq Umishpat! <BR/><BR/>I think there needs to be a joint effort- putting our differences aside and working on projects to now spread this mission of Sedeq Umishpat- AKA the Torah.<BR/><BR/>Well with that said- I had a wonderful night.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-33169571440334239652008-12-10T15:03:00.000-05:002008-12-10T15:03:00.000-05:00to Zack:1) Well intended but logically flawed. eth...to Zack:<BR/><BR/>1) Well intended but logically flawed. ethics is a halachik issue,but not a kashrut issue. The reason a reform schochet cant be trusted is because according to the halachos of kashrut, to be a proper witness one must have a certain level of halackic observance. <BR/><BR/>agree with 2 and 4Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-61266185207660188062008-12-10T14:57:00.000-05:002008-12-10T14:57:00.000-05:00I saw the debate live. It was handled very well an...I saw the debate live. It was handled very well and is a great opnener for TEIQU. I will attend their furutre events.<BR/><BR/>That said, I felt the Gila,the moderator had some liberal bias.<BR/><BR/>She pressed R' Shafran to declare who his gedolim were (which I felt is a question everyone in the audience knew the answer to. He's the public relations head of the agudah - its fairly obvious his gedolim are the Moetzes Gedolei Hatorah), but as a friend pointed out,she never asked Shmuly to respond to R' Shafran's position that such an action needs rabbinic authority. <BR/><BR/>I think that is a very relevent question to ask. At least much more revelvent then the question she asked R' Shafran. <BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>Other then that minor quip, it was an excellent event and a great service to the community.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-34098169471367795732008-12-10T14:47:00.000-05:002008-12-10T14:47:00.000-05:00Avi Shafran's apologetics disgust me. 1) "Any laps...Avi Shafran's apologetics disgust me. <BR/><BR/>1) "<B>Any lapses</B> [and he repeats this multiple times] in ethical behavior has no affect on the kashrut of the food that they product." No affect? Is he really saying that ethical behavior is not a halachic issue? If so, would he accept a reform rabbi as a shochet even if he is makpid on kashrut but not in hilchot Shabbat?? Of course not. Shafran compartmentalizes halacha and says that one can still be considered frum yet cheat others, cheap on taxes, speak loshon harah, abuse workers, abuse children, etc. <BR/><BR/>2) "Jewish producers should not be held more accountable for non-ethical behavior than merchants of Judaica, booksellers, educational institutions...". More accountable in general, no, but certainly more accountable in kashrut!<BR/><BR/>3) "The heksher tzedek was conceived in sin because it jumped to negative judgments of others." Strong words, but is Shafran saying "Agriprocessors is innocent until court proceedings are concluded?" No matter what evidence is made available to the public? So be consistent Shafran, would you let your child alone with one of the many accused child molesters before they went to trial?<BR/><BR/>4) "I don’t expect a Conservative Rabbi to acknowledge that fact- as non-Orthodox rabbis are based on progression, not on Mesorah and not on respect for elders." So he now insults every non-Orthodox Jew as not having respect for elders?<BR/><BR/>Shafran makes me ashamed of Orthodoxy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-24835010487646066022008-12-10T12:02:00.000-05:002008-12-10T12:02:00.000-05:00Also, like it or not, correct or not, once the kos...Also, like it or not, correct or not, once the kosher symbol is on something, there's going to be more attention paid to abuses of other sorts at that company. Simple as that.Nachumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11292162031685942549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-11591888127445031302008-12-10T11:53:00.000-05:002008-12-10T11:53:00.000-05:00Thanks for posting this, Chana.Agreed with Joel Ri...Thanks for posting this, Chana.<BR/><BR/>Agreed with Joel Rich. Anonymous (2:25), you are so wrong. How sad that so many don't seem to see ethics as part of halakha. After exhortation upon exhortation in Chumash to treat the stranger well because we were once suffering strangers, after all the commandments to pay workers on time and protect the downtrodden, after Yeshayah telling us all our rituals are worth nothing if we cannot be decent people--after all that and more, you still see no basis in Judaism to make sure we're not exploiting and abusing others? A religion of Jewish ritual law alone is not Judaism, and caring about the downtrodden is not a "liberal" idea, it's a Torah idea.<BR/><BR/>So why am part of that cause? Because I'm sick of seeing Judaism being twisted around by those who make excuses not to care about ethical abuses. .<BR/><BR/>The answer to Chana's question, as I understand it, is a pragmatic one as Shmuly and Joel Rich put it: the food industry is what has the attention now, and it's where there is enough steam to create change because people are aware of the problems. Of course it would be ideal to eventually expand this concept. Also, in my personal opinion, I think the ritual law surrounding Kashrut highlights the discrepancy between that and the ethical laws/standards being broken, and make us look like even bigger hypocrites than in other industries.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-79859502097851204192008-12-10T11:46:00.000-05:002008-12-10T11:46:00.000-05:00Also Chana, about your question, it is simply more...Also Chana, about your question, it is simply more practical to focus on food organizations -- they already need some type of Hechsher, so this is just one more step. Rabbis already have access to these organizations -- there is no reason that Nike will allow access to the Rabbis.<BR/><BR/>Moreover, because these Kashrut organizations are run by religious Jews for religious Jews, a religious Jewish organization can have a greater effect. First of all, if the owner is a religious Jew, than the words of a Rabbi means more. But even moreso, if all religious Jews were to boycott Nike, we would have no effect, because we make up a tiny portion of their revenues, and it is not economically worth it for them to listen to our demands. If we were to organize a boycott against a specific Kosher restaurant for not paying taxes or not paying their workers enough, it will make financial sense for them to follow the law.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09136034677018916047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-18359837367106065282008-12-10T11:41:00.000-05:002008-12-10T11:41:00.000-05:00BTW What Shmuley keeps talking about is not a "Kta...BTW What Shmuley keeps talking about is not a "Ktav" but a "tav" -- i.e. certificate. <BR/><BR/>He is modeling himself off of the "Tav HaChevrati" ("Social Certificate") in Jerusalem, which is run by "Bma'agalei Tzedek", a Jerusalem-based Religious Zionist social justice organization. This Tav is put up in restaurants that follow Israeli labor laws -- paying workers overtime, giving them breaks, etc... Unfortunately, Israel has less than 10 government workers in the entire country who enforce these laws, so it comes to private organizations to do so. They then publicize the list of restaurants (I have been in houses of Israeli friends who have a fridge magnet of the list of local restaurants under the Tav.<BR/><BR/>If you are curious, here is information about the organization as a whole:<BR/><BR/>http://www.mtzedek.org.il/english/default_en.asp<BR/>and about the certificate<BR/>http://www.mtzedek.org.il/abouttav.aspAlanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09136034677018916047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-36067452757299827052008-12-10T11:20:00.000-05:002008-12-10T11:20:00.000-05:00Chana,Note the Chofetz Chaim Heritage foundation's...Chana,<BR/>Note the Chofetz Chaim Heritage foundation's focus on lashon hara? Why no focus on x,y or z? Is this any different than your question?<BR/><BR/>Was R' Shafran asked if he would OK a hechsher on a restaurant that had mixed dancing? an internet cafe (Main St. Queens?)<BR/><BR/>The short answer to your question is ain hachi nami but this is where the action is today.<BR/><BR/>KT<BR/>Joel RichAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-35583212411423455952008-12-10T10:00:00.000-05:002008-12-10T10:00:00.000-05:00The Cousin:TEIQU stands for:A Torah Exploration of...The Cousin:<BR/>TEIQU stands for:<BR/>A Torah Exploration of Ideas, Questions and UnderstandingEilu Ve'Eilu Fellowshiphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07685468352858669349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-33089345507684305812008-12-10T09:45:00.000-05:002008-12-10T09:45:00.000-05:00Bookmarked to read later...looks interesting.Ques...Bookmarked to read later...looks interesting.<BR/><BR/>Question from a (YU/Stern) outsider--what does "TEIQU" stand for?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-16606673481836064322008-12-10T09:43:00.000-05:002008-12-10T09:43:00.000-05:00Chana,Thank you for yet another great transcript! ...Chana,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for yet another great transcript! You have been doing such great service for the Jewish community.<BR/><BR/>"[barefoot, but at least my nails are painted!] "<BR/><BR/>Ok, you've avoided sweatshop sneakers, but did you check out conditions at the chemical factory where your nail polish was manufactured? ;) Seriously, your question was probably the most profound of the night.Charlie Hallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17667135360784254574noreply@blogger.com