tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post46380609440686909..comments2024-03-18T03:40:39.185-04:00Comments on The Curious Jew: Pidyon Shvuyim for Thieves and Liars?Chanahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-73843837518353644612009-08-07T17:29:19.052-04:002009-08-07T17:29:19.052-04:00>What in the hell do they teach you in these ri...>What in the hell do they teach you in these right-wing yeshivot?<br /><br />You don't want to know.OTDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12284266882043971891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-11799497576291305682009-08-07T14:11:17.757-04:002009-08-07T14:11:17.757-04:00Anonymous, we are referring to two different peopl...Anonymous, we are referring to two different people. <br /><br />I would not label R. Willig as the one who presides over the religious-spiritual side. That's why I assumed you were referring to the mashgiach.<br /><br />Furthermore, I'd leave it up to Richard Joel whether action against R. Willig is warranted, as President Joel was the one who investigated the whole Lanner affair in great detail, and is now in the position to take such action if he wished.<br /><br />But for the record, I was a student of Rabbi Willig, and never heard him preach once that it's OK to ignore child molestors. The issue was that Rabbi Willig didn't believe that someone he knew so well could be so corrupt.<br /><br />And I can understand that. I sat with Mordecai W. in the same shiur. I wasn't friendly with him. But had I known him a bit, I probably would never have imagined the acts that he was committing and would continue to commit.<br /><br />Fortunately, I did learn Gittin and Dina Demalchusa Dina with Rabbi Schachter, and heard him clearly state that all his teaching was predicated on being honest in business. <br /><br />I think the time has come for other institutions to also publicly state that we must be honest in all our business dealings even if the chances are that we won't be caught. <br /><br />Honesty is a value in itself.Der Alter from YUnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-86781580719373073172009-08-07T13:10:30.254-04:002009-08-07T13:10:30.254-04:00“If you knew the whole story, you would know that ...“If you knew the whole story, you would know that this 'spiritual leader' did more than his share in bringing the molester to justice. He had second thoughts about the bais din's conclusion, and stuck his neck out to do the right thing. And he continues to be on the forefront of addressing child molestation issues. So yes, he is a very good example to all the students at YU. All the students learned that if we make a mistake, we should do our best to fix the problem.”<br /><br />This is such brainwashy revisionist history its not even funny. <br /><br />Willig intentionally attempted to quash criminal claims against Lanner- before he had even examined any evidence- by attacking the victims and their supporters from the get-go. This is undisputed fact. And even after hearing the evidence that would have made it clear as day to anyone (at least anyone who wasn’t intent on protecting a child molester) that lanner is a dangerous dude, willig actively covers it up by forcing the claimants to publicly apologize and SEALING the records to ensure that lanner could stay around children. Only after YEARS of stonewalling on the issue does he make his insulting “I made a mistake” apology, but only do public outcry and institutional pressure. <br /><br />A “mistake” would have been ruling the wrong way on a tough case. There was no mistake made when he tried to silence the victims before hearing any evidence- it was straight out malicious and intentional. <br /><br />In a fair and just world, willig would have had to spend time in some pound-me-in-the-ass prison and be stripped of all authority.<br /><br />I also don’t see why people are enamored by an apology. Even most of the biggest and most vile criminals ultimately apologize once caught. <br /><br />What YU has taught me is that its ok for a rabbi to intentionally enable child molesters as long as they apologize after being caught.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-61345007625442776392009-08-07T12:42:45.372-04:002009-08-07T12:42:45.372-04:00Anonymous,
If you knew the whole story, you would...Anonymous,<br /><br />If you knew the whole story, you would know that this 'spiritual leader' did more than his share in bringing the molester to justice. He had second thoughts about the bais din's conclusion, and stuck his neck out to do the right thing. And he continues to be on the forefront of addressing child molestation issues. So yes, he is a very good example to all the students at YU. All the students learned that if we make a mistake, we should do our best to fix the problem.<br /><br />I wish the same could be said about institutions that teach it's OK to steal. Are these leaders renouncing their ridiculous psak that Jews can steal from the government as long as there is no chillul hashem? Recent events have proven how ineffective this psak is. They should have realized from the beginning that the psak is ridiculous. But I'd hope now that they'd publicly renounce their opinions. And I haven't seen that. <br /><br />The Aguda gathering started to address this, but from what I heard, it didn't address the fundamental psak that some people still consider legitimate.Der Alter from YUnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-83414330200246305702009-08-07T10:15:41.075-04:002009-08-07T10:15:41.075-04:00“Fortunately, the institution doesn't teach th...“Fortunately, the institution doesn't teach that it's acceptable to enable child molesters and to steal.”<br /><br />Do as I say but not as I do? Yeah, that’s always effective. <br /><br />By letting an enabler of a convicted child molester be the spiritual leader of the institution it teaches plenty of great lessons to the students on what the institution’s values and where its priorities are.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-45075187994006924592009-08-06T22:40:20.365-04:002009-08-06T22:40:20.365-04:00Hey Anon,
Fortunately, the institution doesn'...Hey Anon,<br /><br />Fortunately, the institution doesn't teach that it's acceptable to enable child molesters and to steal. <br /><br />Can't say as much about other institutions, that pretend to be religious and teach that it's mutar to cheat the government as long as you don't make a chillul hashem.Der Alter from YUnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-74961069838615308192009-08-06T17:14:22.769-04:002009-08-06T17:14:22.769-04:00For someone with such high moral standards, it mus...For someone with such high moral standards, it must have been tough for Chana to willingly spend her entire adult life in an institution where the religious-spiritual side is presided over by a known enabler of a convicted child molester and the secular and financial side was deeply entrenched and was profiting (trying to at least) from the most evil financial criminal of the past century. <br /><br />Geez, I wonder what kind of sick stuff they are teaching in such a morally corrupt institution.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-18642860265675615682009-08-06T15:58:05.281-04:002009-08-06T15:58:05.281-04:00Great post!
The comments are not kind. But the job...Great post!<br />The comments are not kind. But the job of a gifted journalist is not to give in under pressure and continue to stand for what you believe to be true.I admire that in you.Aaronnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-35760160227996377272009-08-06T15:38:37.852-04:002009-08-06T15:38:37.852-04:00JD and adult said:
"So I'll go back and ...JD and adult said:<br /><br />"So I'll go back and grow up a little,and stop being so self-important"<br /><br />O my! Look who is talking... It's you who feels "self-important",or you wouldn't be stating that you are a "JD and adult" and throwing your weight around. In time the jury will prosecute these rabbis as a TREIF "ham sandwich" and the verdict will be just.AKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-25148244472179181122009-08-06T13:16:24.192-04:002009-08-06T13:16:24.192-04:00So where you angry when you wrote this post, and t...So where you angry when you wrote this post, and that's why it's one of your most vile posts? Or do Hassidim rub you the wrong way, and that's why it's your most vile post?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-13794202087649122172009-08-06T10:43:11.660-04:002009-08-06T10:43:11.660-04:00Forget dan l'kaf zchut. Have you never heard ...Forget dan l'kaf zchut. Have you never heard of "innocent until proven guilty"? <br /><br />Do grow up some. This isn't about you or your embarrassment. I'm not saying they're not guilty and won't ultimately be found guilty, but at this point, all we have is an indictment. Do you know what that means? It means the government demonstrated probable cause, and convinced a grand jury to indict. The old joke is that a halfway decent prosecutor could convince a grand jury to prosecute a ham sandwich.<br /><br />So, I'll go back to grow up a little, and stop being so self-important.JD and an adultnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-57539808414580823442009-08-06T10:38:11.466-04:002009-08-06T10:38:11.466-04:00Carrying out justice, which I agree with, and clai...Carrying out justice, which I agree with, and claiming to know that the hearts of people are sociopathic are two very different things. You are the type of person who would do well preaching morals to children, so that they hopefully do the right things in life, but thank God for the world that you don't preside in any courtroom. These people haven't even been properly convicted or sentenced. Maybe they will be. Maybe they won't be. <br /><br />While I have no real reason at this moment to believe that anti-Semitism is part of this scandal, anti-Semitism does seem to have played a role at some points in American history--refer to the cases of the Rosenbergs and Jonathan Pollard. Two very different cases (one was in regard to an enemy country, USSR, the other in regard to an ally, Israel), but in both cases the Jew received an extremely harsh sentence.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-31991724417399867612009-08-06T10:29:22.969-04:002009-08-06T10:29:22.969-04:00I think it could be argued that anti Semitism play...I think it could be argued that anti Semitism played a role in the madoff sentence. Look at the other recent high profile white collar sentences. <br /><br />Ebbers: 25 years<br />Skiling: 25 years<br />Madoff 150 yearsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-18213721762607935142009-08-06T02:22:07.010-04:002009-08-06T02:22:07.010-04:00Before I go to sleep at night, I pray to God for t...Before I go to sleep at night, I pray to God for those I love. That includes The Girl from Philly, BlueJew, Rocket Man & the Flower Princess. Had I the power to give them all the blessings in the world, I would. Moods can come and go; choice remains the same. This desire I have to do good for them is unchanging and everlasting- that's the *true* me...leave aside the others. Take nothing to heart but that fact; I pray for those whom I wish well.Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-90938245990910094322009-08-06T02:00:30.374-04:002009-08-06T02:00:30.374-04:00And in truth I wish everybody the best - always.And in truth I wish everybody the best - always.Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-3757322825119499032009-08-06T01:59:48.258-04:002009-08-06T01:59:48.258-04:00I'm sorry- that was cruel. I become cruel some...I'm sorry- that was cruel. I become cruel sometimes. I am not really. I wish everyone well- <i>really.</i><br /><br />Listen, thanks for the discussion- and have a good night- with lots of blessings and joy and happiness- and forget my cruelty. I am unkind.Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-37292822760707208652009-08-06T01:38:56.289-04:002009-08-06T01:38:56.289-04:00ur point about this not changing whether they shou...ur point about this not changing whether they should sit-true valid point I have nothing to add to ur entire response except that ppl who betray others sometimes cannot live with themselves forever and ever, naybe the rabbis feel that and it will help them do teshuvaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-91813609248205813382009-08-06T01:31:15.987-04:002009-08-06T01:31:15.987-04:00JAT,
I once heard a perspective I found beautiful...JAT,<br /><br />I once heard a perspective I found beautiful- it was when I was in Crown Heights for Shabbat. The Lubavitch family I visited for a Melave Malka was speaking about Madoff and rather than saying he was an evil person said she could not fathom how strongly the aspect of greed pulled him in, and it was sad that he was sucked in by his greed.<br /><br />I did admire that. And I do admire the fact that you can judge people favorably like that- so long as it's divorced from a consequence I see as unacceptable. By which I mean, I'm fully prepared to say that perhaps indeed these men fell prey to their lust for money due to the temptation of their evil inclination, but even so, I think they must have the law thrown at them (and should not be spared the repercussions of their actions.) <br /><br />You should know that with me in particular, people who lie or break faith are the worst of the worst. Trust is the most important thing in the world- between people, between man and God, between man and man. It upsets me tremendously when our leaders are untrustworthy and have broken faith with us. Betrayals or breaches of trust of any kind kill me. My best friend in the whole world did that once to me- unintentionally, and I forgave him for it- but he shouldn't have claimed he was sure of something (it was something very important, as all meetings at 2 in the morning which involve girls in pink skirts are important) when he wasn't. Now, that friend was betrayed in turn by *his* best friends (it had to do with school and such)...anyway, that's off subject. The thing is just that betrayals and breaches of trust and breaking promises hurt me most out of every sin possible; that is why I react so strongly to them.Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-86402423221663931032009-08-06T01:23:42.887-04:002009-08-06T01:23:42.887-04:00while your idea rings true and is definitley the ...while your idea rings true and is definitley the more convincing one, maybe a fresh look is needed your story about the girl in your class is painful, only adding to the sick feeling most ppl felt when they found out about the crimes (not the arrets, but the crime) and those people include right wing rabbis to conservative laymen, it still has no bearing to why they did it or whether they struggle maybe the only reason you see it by the gay/lesbian person and not these individuals is because you have spoken/read interviews with such people? someone who never did either of those doesn't think the gay person struggles at all as I'm sure you have met or read such views<br /> lying, hypocrisy, faking etc all horrible-just makes the crimes bigger but how does that mitigate the person/sinner involved? because they hurt others means its not hard for them to resist? you compare it to idolatry, as the famous gemara poits out, the desire for idolatry in those days is not fathomable to us-and those very ppl are scratching their heads now looking down and wondering how onw can pervert torah/justice all for the sake of moneyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-80612149456448340102009-08-06T01:07:59.302-04:002009-08-06T01:07:59.302-04:00JAT,
"do we try to help jews even those who ...JAT,<br /><br />"do we try to help jews even those who have commited wrong"- The best possible help we could give them is for them to sit in prison and contemplate their crimes. People have to accept responsibility for their actions- ALL their actions. These people well knew the risk they ran; they knew the consequences- they did it anyway.<br /><br />Regarding what you say about indiscriminate application- I disagree. I personally, for instance, see this by gay/ lesbian people. But in those cases, that sin only hurts *them.* They are not lying to their community, cheating their people, hurting the image of the Jewish nation as a whole, totally denying the idea of being an Or LaGoyim- every offense is multiplied here. I see betrayals like these as one of the worst crimes- because it's our own. You're right- *maybe* these people struggled with themselves, etc but I am extremely doubtful that's the case. <br /><br />When I'm in class, there's a woman who knows every single scandal that has anything to do with Orthodox Judaism. Every single one! I'm in class and I want to show how my religion is true- is meaningful- is pure, right? And no matter what I say, this woman has a story to show the disgusting depths to which our nation can sink. I think that's written somewhere- that no one has the potential to reach as high or as low as the Jews. <br /><br />I understand the idea that one man, perhaps, struggles with his temptation and sins. But an entire group of people? Would you have me believe that everyone who works in the Mafia also had a dread confrontation with their evil inclination and lost? I don't believe it. Sometimes people choose to lust after money because it's the easiest thing- not something they've fought and given in to. <br /><br />So- the best way to help these people is to let them suffer the consequences of their actions to the fullest extent of the law. That's how we learn. If we *do* save these people from their well-deserved punishment, we are just teaching them that it's okay for them to sin- no big deal- because we'll help them get away with it. THAT would be the real tragedy.Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-28538276405405615492009-08-06T00:59:39.917-04:002009-08-06T00:59:39.917-04:00you are correct about pidyon shevuim- the more con...you are correct about pidyon shevuim- the more conplicated question is does it apply to ppl who have done wrong-or even if it doesn't, do we try to help jews even those who have commited wrong<br /><br />how do you know these ppl so not have a yetzer hars to do all of the above? maybe some of them struggled with themselves for hours, lost nights of sleep but gavw in to temptation whether its the temptation to stay a rabbi to receive honor even though one knows they are a sinner, or to make money, whatever it is how does one know how strong these ppl desires are? and as far as no remorse, maybe they struggle with that every second of the day? I know I'm playing devils advocate here, but my point is everyone both right and left is inconsistent with hating the sin and not the sinner, those on the right do not apply it by many sins but they do with others and same can be said throughout the spectrumAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-46751300838476551272009-08-06T00:49:01.196-04:002009-08-06T00:49:01.196-04:00JAT,
Here's what I figure: I don't know e...JAT,<br /><br />Here's what I figure: I don't know exactly where the concept of Pidyon Shvuyim comes down in the literature, honestly. I assume it was instituted for people who were, quite literally, taken captive for money (so to be ransomed.) Alternatively, it might apply to a situation where a poretz who was notoriously anti-Semitic had a Jew in his prison (for debts or otherwise.) In either of those scenarios (even if the Jew is a Beinoni - thus not a Tzadik)- the Jew is not in a position where he actually committed *crimes* and needs to be saved. Rather, he is being saved because:<br /><br />1. He was kidnapped<br />2. Anti-Semitism will not allow for clear/ true justice to prevail<br /><br />Thank God, in America, neither of these things are the case. Thus, there is no need to consider pidyon shvuyim for criminals. <br /><br />I am saying that of course their yetzer harah is part of why they sin. But I won't have compassion upon people who lead the community and then betray it in such a horrible way, or those that use the words of Torah as code for their filth. That Gemara that I never understood says that if someone *must* sin they should go away to a different city, dress in black, etc...well, these people weren't those who were fighting desperately against their yetzer hara and finally gave in and are remorseful about what they did. They're just people who wanted to turn a profit through money-laundering- money, the idol of our times.Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-5709717179486456492009-08-06T00:41:55.780-04:002009-08-06T00:41:55.780-04:00(btw jat is not anon)
so the question is how do po...(btw jat is not anon)<br />so the question is how do points 2 and 3 work together-does chillul hashem make them not worthy of pidyon shevuim or is it the fact that the govt would fix it if it was a miscarriage of justice the reason- (and btw pidyon shevuim is not limited to tzadikim)<br /><br />point 4-so ur saying these ppl have a desire to do a bad act (which no regret is) independent of the yetzer hara? is there such a thing?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-58994049591028028862009-08-06T00:31:43.774-04:002009-08-06T00:31:43.774-04:001) Just because a Chicago rabbi is also a criminal...1) Just because a Chicago rabbi is also a criminal doesn't absolve anyone else.<br /><br />2) A miscarriage of justice such that people would get the death penalty for stealing would be fixed by the State/ Gov. There need be no involvement from the populace. <br /><br />3) I think the fact that they caused a massive Chilul Hashem absolutely has to do with the fact that they don't deserve (at all) a Pidyon Shvuyim.<br /><br />4) I don't believe it (re: yetzer hara, the fact that they don't feel bad, etc.) People like that are sociopaths- they know the difference between right and wrong; they just don't care. (As opposed to psychopaths, who will kill you because they think they're killing a grizzly bear, for instance.) And no, I have no compassion for sociopaths who help destroy the Jewish community further.Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-70088578093624497332009-08-06T00:25:53.292-04:002009-08-06T00:25:53.292-04:00is there a resosn you have not responded to the ma...is there a resosn you have not responded to the many comments?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com