tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post3526904134793689564..comments2024-03-18T03:40:39.185-04:00Comments on The Curious Jew: Lust & Desire: Rabbi Meir & BeruriahChanahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-68977888838956996452008-01-28T13:20:00.000-05:002008-01-28T13:20:00.000-05:00The phrase "nashim daatan kalos" is often cut shor...The phrase "nashim daatan kalos" is often cut short - the fourth and final word is "lehispatos - to be seduced." The idea of daatan kalos is specific to lehispatos; it's not a blanket description of women. It simply means that women are easily wooed - sexually or otherwise.Financial Artisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08436123175407547608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-9312937461979481592008-01-22T08:24:00.000-05:002008-01-22T08:24:00.000-05:00The whole Bruriah story has never made any level o...The whole Bruriah story has never made any level of sense to me. Firstly, because "daatan kalot" either means that women are stupid or that they are weak and flighty (the same phrase is used in another story to denote a likelihood of giving into interrogation). Giving into seduction proves neither of those things; at best, it would prove lustfulness and that's not what's being debated. Secondly, as stories all over the talmud and general life experience may point out, men are far more susceptible to seduction than women, so if Bruriah's giving in confirms the statement, then there are dozens of other stories that would confirm the statement "but men's daat is even more kal."<BR/><BR/>The only way I have of understanding it is that the story is not dealing with seduction per se, but with a general female inability to stand up to pressure. If so, R' Meir's own flights of passion are irrelevent- the point is not that she wanted to sleep with the student, it's that she gave into his nagging.<BR/><BR/>Another interesting thing about the second narrative is that afterwards, I think, R' Meir repents for mocking those who sin. If that is after the Bruriah story, it certainly suggests an interesting character development on his part.Tobiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14930468887760990485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-71002078171549519002008-01-22T01:53:00.000-05:002008-01-22T01:53:00.000-05:00This story pops up in many forms with various rabb...This story pops up in many forms with various rabbis. See end of Kiddushin (I should look it up, but it's 2am). It's questionable whether it actually has to do with R' Meir, or was a popular story attributed to several different rabbis to impart the same moral lesson, without any real relation to their historical personages. <BR/><BR/>However, the prevalence of the story in Talmudic literature would seem to make your nashim daatan kalot point nonetheless (or its prevalence may warrant revision of your initial understanding of that maxim, since it's so obvious a contradiction, unless the principle has different names for men and women).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-50801865306398349712008-01-21T14:50:00.000-05:002008-01-21T14:50:00.000-05:00Do we know where Rashi gets the story from?The Jew...<I>Do we know where Rashi gets the story from?</I><BR/><BR/>The <A HREF="http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=940&letter=B" REL="nofollow">Jewish Encyclopedia</A> says "The historical kernel of this story can not be disengaged. As told, the narrative is wholly at variance with what is known of Beruriah's character and that of R. Meïr."<BR/><BR/>According to <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beruriah" REL="nofollow">Wikipedia</A> (which I haven't been able to check) "Rabenu Nisim brings on a different explanation which is more close to the text. According to him, Rabbi Meir and Bruriah had to flee to Babylonia after the Romans executed her father, sold her mother to slavery and her sister to a brothel (to be rescued by Rabbi Meir) and were looking for her."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-15311276440573725182008-01-21T10:16:00.000-05:002008-01-21T10:16:00.000-05:00cool, 'feminism-torah'.cool, 'feminism-torah'.הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"טhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04835340110056405173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-54853642126184192582008-01-20T22:34:00.001-05:002008-01-20T22:34:00.001-05:00Just to cause problems...What would have been the ...Just to cause problems...<BR/><BR/>What would have been the "sin" in his case?<BR/><BR/>Not "proper" perhaps but an outright "sin"...maybe not.Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08512231582715592098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-9388993771911296972008-01-20T22:34:00.000-05:002008-01-20T22:34:00.000-05:00Do we know where Rashi gets the story from? Do we...Do we know where Rashi gets the story from? Do we have other examples of Rashi (on Shas) filling in such gaping holes in a story?<BR/><BR/>I've always been a little suspicious of it.Ben Greenfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09436935130008960024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-69321448775615848932008-01-20T20:43:00.000-05:002008-01-20T20:43:00.000-05:00Just that it's interesting, isn't it? The story of...Just that it's interesting, isn't it? The story of Beruriah is frequently quoted (to suggest that she was a flawed individual and/or ostensibly to support the statement "Nashim da'atan kalos") but her husband suffered from the same flaw! <BR/><BR/>This is a lovely example of the statement, "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-43326571576617274812008-01-20T20:35:00.000-05:002008-01-20T20:35:00.000-05:00And your point is?And your point is?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com