tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post2651611176218045318..comments2024-03-18T03:40:39.185-04:00Comments on The Curious Jew: the damnable truthChanahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-72561114849942622272007-08-20T10:02:00.000-04:002007-08-20T10:02:00.000-04:00Another comment - the facts do not mandate what we...Another comment - the facts do not mandate what we do about them. Even if it can be shown that 'blacks' (however you define that group) have a lower average (median? mean?) IQ than 'whites' (however you define that group) the question then becomes what to do about it. <BR/><BR/>One possible response is to increase the amount of money being spent on remedial education targeted at blacks - after all, our response to special education students is not to throw them out on the street. Another response is to throw out all anti-discrimination laws in hiring on the grounds that people have perfectly rational reasons to discriminate against hiring black people. I don't think that reaction is supportable even if the premise regarding black intelligence is true.Larry Lennhoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06578073969473815180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-65567712710127501042007-08-19T08:54:00.000-04:002007-08-19T08:54:00.000-04:00"Also important to remember is that while an overa...<I>"Also important to remember is that while an overall population may have certain traits that another lacks to an extent, that does not translate into individual stereotypes; any individual can fall anywhere across that spread."</I><BR/><BR/><I>"These discoveries often exist in abstract numbers and do not apply to specific individuals. Even if it were proven that Cambodians are smarter than Uzbeks, that doesn’t mean that all Cambodians are smarter than all Uzbeks, therefore there is no legitimate way to legislate on this issue. As long as such a discovery remains in the abstract and is not misused by people with power, it should not lead to a dangerous place."</I><BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119177/combined" REL="nofollow">Gattaca</A>, anybody?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-5838048778395426732007-08-18T14:46:00.000-04:002007-08-18T14:46:00.000-04:00Chana-Have you read Thomas Kuhn's "Theory of Scien...Chana-<BR/>Have you read Thomas Kuhn's "Theory of Scientific Revolutions?"eemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02122062556637908608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-20856307903479138412007-08-17T23:42:00.000-04:002007-08-17T23:42:00.000-04:00There's no need to go so far. We have much less dr...There's no need to go so far. We have much less drastic and yet no less controversial examples right now - the debate over whether men and women are equal in every way (biologically speaking) and should have equal opportunities in all respects. I'm not going to go into the detailed history of the attempts to pass Equal Rights Amendments, but suffice to say, you can imagine what people on each side of the divide are saying.<BR/><BR/>Then there's the infamous controversy over the former Harvard president Lawrence Summers (a famous economist), who suggest in an open forum that the reason there's an overwhelming majority of men in exact sciences may be due to biological factors. (Instead of giving reasonable science-based arguments for why he is wrong, he was called a chauvinist/sexist and eventually driven out).Irina Tsukermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10964771563778702009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-3945692535026840592007-08-17T21:01:00.000-04:002007-08-17T21:01:00.000-04:00Chana, I love the new banner comic!Chana, I love the new banner comic!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-36166934420077138282007-08-17T16:50:00.000-04:002007-08-17T16:50:00.000-04:00Chana,A "Sword of Truth" reference, nice!Chana,<BR/><BR/>A "Sword of Truth" reference, nice!Reahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02649376701210070019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-60916509021246393262007-08-17T16:24:00.000-04:002007-08-17T16:24:00.000-04:00"I am asking you who determines this and how we go..."I am asking you who determines this and how we go about determining this- a criteria." <BR/><BR/>I'm guessing the old Prime Directive is no good here?<BR/>The needs of the many far outweigh the needs of the few or the one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-81874678880850034102007-08-17T15:58:00.000-04:002007-08-17T15:58:00.000-04:00Your post implies that our current tests and measu...<I>Your post implies that our current tests and measurements of intelligence are completely reliable and fail proof. However, that is a debatable point.</I><BR/><BR/>Chana raised a hypothetical question - what if in our quest for truth, we uncover facts that we wish were not true? How do we deal with those facts? It is the other people on the discussion who seem to think the Bell Curve and other such works are definitely on to something.Larry Lennhoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06578073969473815180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-75895218468277789212007-08-17T15:43:00.001-04:002007-08-17T15:43:00.001-04:00Chana, Your post implies that our current tests an...Chana, <BR/>Your post implies that our current tests and measurements of intelligence are completely reliable and fail proof. However, that is a debatable point. Our current IQ test is biased by very the nature of the way in which one takes it. Someone who has never taken a test, or has never attended school, will already be at a disadvantage compared to those who are used to taking tests. In Israel, the army is working to create a new kind of intelligence test for Ethiopians, simply b/c Ethiopians are so culturally unprepared to take the current test in place. It may be true that certain minorities have lower IQ's then whites, but let’s not assume that the IQ test is a fail proof indicator of intelligence levels.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-63104689415171339542007-08-17T15:43:00.000-04:002007-08-17T15:43:00.000-04:00One can make the argument either way about what is...<I>One can make the argument either way about what is more moral: Truth with terrible consequences, or lies with positive ones.</I><BR/><BR/>I shouldn't have used this line immediately following the other one, I see how that made it confusing as to what I meant.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-61732092908198251452007-08-17T15:40:00.000-04:002007-08-17T15:40:00.000-04:00If the truth about Orthodox Judaism were more comm...<I>If the truth about Orthodox Judaism were more commonly known by the Orthodox, many more people might go "off the derech." To me, that's not nearly as bad as racism, but to the rabbis, it's a disaster.</I><BR/><BR/>The question here is not just whether truth should be withheld, but information in general that can be harmful - true or not. Sometimes getting into endless debates serves no purpose other than to confuse; it doesn't (sometimes can't) lead to definitive conclusions.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-76004267900295794812007-08-17T15:31:00.000-04:002007-08-17T15:31:00.000-04:00"Unlike them, I'm not saying we shouldn't do it." ..."Unlike them, I'm not saying we shouldn't do it." <BR/><BR/>Right, you would do it...excpet you have no idea how! You think OJ is any different?<BR/><BR/>"You'll notice that I didn't politely ignore this post."<BR/><BR/>Fair point.Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08512231582715592098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-53260777539433752092007-08-17T14:53:00.000-04:002007-08-17T14:53:00.000-04:00Chana, I certainly wasn't trying to put words into...Chana, I certainly wasn't trying to put words into your mouth.<BR/><BR/>I cannot agree with this: <I>The consequences of this truth are not comparable to the religious situation you have brought up</I>.<BR/><BR/>If the truth about Orthodox Judaism were more commonly known by the Orthodox, many more people might go "off the derech." To me, that's not nearly as bad as racism, but to the rabbis, it's a disaster.Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-17093466522597229152007-08-17T14:50:00.000-04:002007-08-17T14:50:00.000-04:00Ezzie and Jewish Atheist, I don't know where you'r...Ezzie and Jewish Atheist, I don't know where you're going with this, but I'd prefer not to have things said in my name that I did not say.<BR/><BR/>I think Rabbis need to be honest and consistent in their approach and beliefs and I don't think the consequences will be "terrible" if they did that and stuck to one consistent story. <BR/><BR/>I am asking about an issue that could potentially affect the entire world when I suggest that science/ reason could allow for a situation where people are proven genetically inferior or superior to one another. The consequences of this truth are not comparable to the religious situation you have brought up (which indeed, merely suggests cowardice on the part of the Rabbi.) <BR/><BR/>We all agree that some information is privileged (I don't have information that could compromise CIA/ FBI investigations, for instance.) I am asking you who determines this and how we go about determining this- a criteria.Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-69836266534215743272007-08-17T14:40:00.000-04:002007-08-17T14:40:00.000-04:00Chana noted above something which I find distastef...<I>Chana noted above something which I find distasteful, but plausible: "Which again leads me to wonder how much truth or information one can ethically disseminate to the public. " One can make the argument either way about what is more moral: Truth with terrible consequences, or lies with positive ones.</I><BR/><BR/>Which explains why rabbis will tell skeptics one thing in private but not own up to it in public, I guess. I wonder exactly how much lying the gedolim do because they think the masses can't handle it. Do <B>all</B> the prominent MO rabbis really believe Moses wrote the entire chumash? I'd be shocked if they did.Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-26418079707064874692007-08-17T14:31:00.000-04:002007-08-17T14:31:00.000-04:00I'm not quite getting the fallacy/ what I'm doing ...<I>I'm not quite getting the fallacy/ what I'm doing wrong, so if you could further explain, that would be appreciated.</I><BR/><BR/>The idea that because something is true in aggregate, it should be enforced on the individual level. In Orthodoxy gender roles are a good example - because halacha says that women in general are like this or that, rules are generated that forbid them from not being like this or that. No one proposes making legislation to require unsupported objects to fall - if such laws are needed it is an indication that the 'laws' are in fact not true.<BR/><BR/><I><BR/>Society may ignore statistics. But I'm asking- should they? </I><BR/>In many cases, yes. It depends on which statistic and in what context they are to be ignored/recognized.<BR/><BR/><I>More importantly, how many people walking the streets actually know these statistics about women/ black people, etc even exist? Are we taught this in our curriculums [sic] in high school? And who determines which statistics we ignore?</I><BR/>I certainly learned these facts in high school. That may be because these laws were getting passed when I was in high school. I think the fact that contemporary women have longer lifespans than contemporary men is well known - people just tend not to think about the consequences.<BR/><BR/>And in these particular cases I do think laws forbidding using the statistics are fair - to use them undermines the whole 'pooling risk' concept behind insurance. This is also a powerful reason for supporting national health insurance, but let's save that for another time.<BR/><BR/>Who decides? Melech HaMoshiach, the Sanhedrin Gadol, the Gedolim, or l'havdil the free market, the people and/or their representatives, whoever normally decides such things.Larry Lennhoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06578073969473815180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-19333210789467140272007-08-17T14:28:00.000-04:002007-08-17T14:28:00.000-04:00Unlike them, I'm not saying we shouldn't do it. Yo...<I>Unlike them, I'm not saying we shouldn't do it. You'll notice that I didn't politely ignore this post.</I><BR/><BR/>...but it makes it all the more clear why one could argue strongly for the idea that not everything need be discussed.<BR/><BR/>Chana noted above something which I find distasteful, but plausible: "Which again leads me to wonder how much truth or information one can ethically disseminate to the public. " One can make the argument either way about what is more moral: Truth with terrible consequences, or lies with positive ones.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-19082217425764390852007-08-17T14:26:00.000-04:002007-08-17T14:26:00.000-04:00Actually, earlier this week, I was trying to think...<I>Actually, earlier this week, I was trying to think of every conceivable reason why it's bad to murder</I><BR/><BR/>There's a book about that as well; we take it as a given that murder is wrong save extreme circumstances, but it's possible (the book argues probable) that prior to religion, this was not the moral standard whatsoever. As it was explained to me, one example is that goods were scarce, and the competition to get those goods incredible. Killing to keep one's family alive was not just an option, but a necessity: Even a noble one, a higher sense of morality. (I wish I had actually read the book myself to explain better.)Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-47129316213361443392007-08-17T14:21:00.000-04:002007-08-17T14:21:00.000-04:00Sounds alot like a certain religion I know :)Unlik...<I>Sounds alot like a certain religion I know :)</I><BR/><BR/>Unlike them, I'm not saying we shouldn't do it. You'll notice that I didn't politely ignore this post.Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-88208230122643432252007-08-17T13:35:00.000-04:002007-08-17T13:35:00.000-04:00"I also have no idea how we could start talking ab..."I also have no idea how we could start talking about this topic as a society without large negative consequences."<BR/><BR/>Sounds alot like a certain religion I know :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-55099686140160133772007-08-17T13:13:00.000-04:002007-08-17T13:13:00.000-04:00I don't think you need to go far to see the outcom...I don't think you need to go far to see the outcome of something like this. Remember the whole controversy when the Harvard University President said that perhaps the reason more woman are in engineers is because of some differences in the human brain? They were all lined up to have him burned at the stake.Holy Hyraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704030181702087485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-11617943460214365972007-08-17T12:49:00.000-04:002007-08-17T12:49:00.000-04:00Chana,"But where do the values derive from if not ...Chana,<BR/><BR/><I>"But where do the values derive from if not the facts? I'm quite curious as to the source of values."</I><BR/><BR/>That's one of the big questions in philosophy! My understanding is the values are informed by the facts, but they can not be deduced directly from them.<BR/><BR/>Actually, earlier this week, I was trying to think of every conceivable reason why it's bad to murder, if you could be certain no one would ever find out (before you start worrying, this came out of a discussion I had with you! This idea may end up as part of a post on my blog about my personal religious journey), and I could not find one which was not based on a value judgement, not a fact. I have not got time to list them all and how I got to them, but it is things like God/Torah/revealed law, human rights, the sanctity of life, the importance of the individual, the rule of law, the public good... none can actually be proven scientifically. You can't put human rights in a jar. Some are informed by facts (societies where basic human rights are not respected are generally not nice places to live - but then you have to define 'nice'). The best you can say is "well, I wouldn't want people to treat me like this", but then you have to argue why behaving hypocritically is bad even if no one could ever find out, because it is another value.<BR/><BR/>Hmm, did I mention that away from Judaism, I tend towards <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism" REL="nofollow">solipsism</A>?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-12004274326053361152007-08-17T12:08:00.000-04:002007-08-17T12:08:00.000-04:00I guess I find it hard to figure out what you're s...I guess I find it hard to figure out what you're saying because there's a lot of hypotheticals in your post and those are hard to argue against.<BR/><BR/>But in general, I find the whole religious vs atheist thing to be distracting from the question. In my mind there are groups of people that need to know the truth no matter how uncomfortable and there are groups of people who would rather not know if they are going to be miserable when they find out the truth. Often the latter group is much bigger than the former. Once again I don't think it has to do with religion - that is just a special case.<BR/><BR/>We can play hypotheticals all day long. What if we found out that the State of Israel engaged in a massively covered up genocide against the palestinians in 1948. Should we disband the state since it was founded on genocide?<BR/><BR/>But hypotheticals aside, we know that even when confronted with facts, peeople often will not wnat to face the truth. Look at Germany in the '30's. Many people know what was happening to the Jews, and knew it was wrong, but chose to ignore it...e-kvetcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11235994048517019317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-81916727106983402862007-08-17T11:41:00.000-04:002007-08-17T11:41:00.000-04:00Chana:The majority of people nowadays would prefer...Chana:<BR/><BR/><I>The majority of people nowadays would prefer the Torah did not say that people engaging in homosexual behavior would be put to death, but they believe this to be a truth and accept it even though they really wish it were false.</I><BR/><BR/>Interesting comparison!Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-29021359724534670562007-08-17T11:26:00.000-04:002007-08-17T11:26:00.000-04:00I gotta tell ya', you sometimes are a little uncle...<I>I gotta tell ya', you sometimes are a little unclear in this area.</I><BR/><BR/>Interesting. I'd like to hear more. I know I'm less than traditionally liberal on guns and less dovish than the far left, but other than that I thought I was a good little liberal. ;-)<BR/><BR/><I>Would you act on said truth? Allow it to be used in real world applications?</I><BR/><BR/>The obvious real-world application is with affirmative action. A lot of the case for it goes away if we no longer believe that the sole reasons for lack of proportionality in admissions without affirmative action is due to prejudice, unequal playing fields, etc. I haven't come to a conclusion about affirmative action yet in light of this new (to me, at least) evidence.<BR/><BR/>I also have no idea how we could start talking about this topic as a society without large negative consequences.Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.com