tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post1656565319771819944..comments2024-03-18T03:40:39.185-04:00Comments on The Curious Jew: Folklore, Fairytales & Mysticism within the Context of Judaism and the BibleChanahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-85660075701756208132007-07-21T19:12:00.000-04:002007-07-21T19:12:00.000-04:00Hi Chana,I happened onto your blog. I'm glad that ...Hi Chana,<BR/>I happened onto your blog. I'm glad that Elijah's Violin has meant so much to you. I agree with most of your commentary on the book. Let me note, though, that the book was published in 1983, not 1945. I was born in 1945. Also, there are sources provided for all the stories at the end of the book. The commentaries on the stories were expanded in a more recent edition of the book, published by Oxford University Press. <BR/>Best Wishes,<BR/>Howard SchwartzHowardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16903302551105644032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-48708092330484153272007-07-12T13:34:00.000-04:002007-07-12T13:34:00.000-04:00e-kvetcher,Thanks! I found it very interesting- an...e-kvetcher,<BR/><BR/>Thanks! I found it very interesting- and yes, I recall reading she pastured her horses in the sea (<I>The Last Unicorn</I> seems to reference that.)<BR/><BR/>Yitz,<BR/><BR/>Do you know, I was thinking about what you'd written and then laughed out loud, because I recalled that I had written <A HREF="http://curiousjew.blogspot.com/2007/02/at-zoo.html" REL="nofollow">this story</A> before ever seeing "Planet of the Apes" or "The Twilight Zone." And yet my story was exactly like theirs (and therefore, unoriginal!) But I had come up with it myself and hadn't seen the other movies.<BR/><BR/>What can I say; I guess you've proved your point.Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-73514597667962586142007-07-12T11:35:00.000-04:002007-07-12T11:35:00.000-04:00Some more stuff on Baba Yaga in the middle of this...Some more stuff on Baba Yaga in the middle of <A HREF="http://www.redkaganate.org/folklore/russtppe.shtml" REL="nofollow">this article</A>, from a an anthropological perspective.e-kvetcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11235994048517019317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-50068659832021633142007-07-12T11:12:00.000-04:002007-07-12T11:12:00.000-04:00Mike,Yes! The Dubno Maggid's parables are another ...Mike,<BR/><BR/>Yes! The Dubno Maggid's parables are another favorite of mine. I love all his parables and stories. I think I've even mentioned him once in a post, in reference to "chocolate-coated pills."<BR/><BR/>Yitz,<BR/><BR/>What an interesting insight on your part! A story-based person. You're very right. I am a story-based person. I understand the world through stories. When I meet people, I want to know their stories. And yes, it absolutely is more complicated; I wanted to try to separate people out into types and then of course there are many different types of people <I>within</I> those categories. But I very much appreciate your points.<BR/><BR/>I didn't exactly intend the point you mention because most of the time the different fairy-tales are folklore stolen from others. Of course, you are right that sometimes two people who have no contact with one another write the same story. But what happens more often is that cultures hear stories/ tales (they spread by word of mouth, of course) and adapt them. <BR/><BR/>E-kvetcher,<BR/><BR/>Hey, that's a brilliant observation! That's the reason I love <I>The Brothers Karamazov</I>, for the soap opera element, but I never applied it to fairy tales. Baba Yaga reminds me very much of Asmodeus (in Jewish folklore.) They are both cast on the side of the night, as it were, possibly the Dark, but they are not in and of themselves <I>evil.</I> They have tasks and they can be fair; indeed, they must play by rules and if protagonists follow the rules, they shall be rewarded. I love Baba Yaga. <BR/><BR/>As an aside, flying on a mortar and pestle beats a broom any day.Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-72115737160172808322007-07-12T10:58:00.000-04:002007-07-12T10:58:00.000-04:00I think it is neat that you like Russian fairy tal...I think it is neat that you like Russian fairy tales. I am not an expert on fairy tales, but the thing that strikes me as somewhat unique about them is that they are more like a soap opera where various characters reappear over and over again. They are at once familiar yet in many ways they are subtly different from story to story. For example, Baba Yaga, who unlike the more westernized concept of an evil witch, is very ambivalent. Sometimes she is evil, yet many times she will help the protagonist. I think it has to do with the fact that these fairy tales are more like echoes on an ancient, pre-Christian mythology and way of life. Similar to Greek mythology, where like in people, there really is not a clear demarcation between good and evil among the gods.<BR/><BR/>BTW, there is a woman who davens at Young Israel, Skokie who I believe is a professor of literature specializing in Fairy Tales, though I don't think it is Russian Fairy Tales...e-kvetcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11235994048517019317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-4905237725431522942007-07-12T10:57:00.000-04:002007-07-12T10:57:00.000-04:00@ChanaI was happy to see mention of Rebbe Nachman'...@Chana<BR/><BR/>I was happy to see mention of Rebbe Nachman's tales halfway through. (Because how could they be left out?)<BR/><BR/>I have two major observations regarding this post: <BR/><BR/>1. There are different kinds of people. You are a story-based person. You understand the world primarily through stories. (There are many others who don't. I think. because I'm also a story person, I can never be 100% sure.) It's definitely more complicated than Analytical vs. Humanities people. There are people who see the world as a flow of historical forces. People who see the world as an interplay of legalistic forces. There are also people who see the world as a quilt of overlapping interactions of people. None of these people are story-people exactly. And of course there are many many more kinds.<BR/><BR/>2. I think the reason that Jewish tales and fairy tales hit the same themes is because these archetypes are represented in the underlying structure of creation. Fairy tales and Jewish tales are talking about realities that exist. Sometimes it's 3 blind men talking about different parts of the elephant--other times it's two prophets seeing the same vision through eyes that see differently.<BR/><BR/>It's not that anyone is necesary copying anyone else (as you astutely hinted to in the beginning of your post--i don't know if you noticed that two people writing virtually the same tale with different characters is the same as two people coming up with the same brilliant idea---if you intended that then I take my hat off to your amazing writing ability. I'm floored.) it's that we're all opening our eyes on the same world with the same underlying structure and lessons and clothing them in the clothing that is familliar to us. <BR/><BR/>(I think that is something that becomes clear through Rebbe Nachman's stories davka, because I think Rebbe Nachman was fully conscious of what he was doing in his stories, whereas most authors wrote stories via inspiration and deep 'visions' they may not have fully understood)<BR/><BR/>[sorry, i talk a lot]yitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05866660855678077639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-16485405621813862282007-07-12T10:51:00.000-04:002007-07-12T10:51:00.000-04:00I recall reading something from the Dubna Maggid, ...I recall reading something from the Dubna Maggid, where he answered a question about how he finds an apt moshol for so many points of Torah with another moshol: Of an archer whose arrows are always dead in the bullseye, because he shoots at a bale of straw and then paints the target around the arrow. That is, that he hears a good story, and then figures how to adapt it to teach a Torah lesson. And I always assumed that many of the more fantastic aggaditas were adaptations of well known tales to teach a point.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-8245058899054557752007-07-12T09:41:00.000-04:002007-07-12T09:41:00.000-04:00Jackie,I still have to get ahold of Dr. Zornberg's...Jackie,<BR/><BR/>I still have to get ahold of Dr. Zornberg's books; my father is impatient for me to do so. :-)<BR/><BR/>Rabbi Neil,<BR/><BR/>I have not, but I shall now! My favorite fairytales of all time are Russian fairy tales. They have a dark beauty that I have not found anywhere else (and fairytales are a specialty of mine.) Of those, my favorites are <A HREF="http://www.oldrussia.net/vas.html" REL="nofollow">Vasilisa the Beautiful</A> and a Ukrainian fairytale which I call "The Sun Princess" (I'll check up its true title tonight.) <BR/><BR/>I have always been moved by Oscar Wilde's <A HREF="http://www.4literature.net/Oscar_Wilde/Nightingale_and_the_Rose/" REL="nofollow">The Nightingale and the Rose.</A><BR/><BR/>My very favorite fairytale is Hansel and Gretel. I used to pretend to be Gretel on my walks home from shul with my father. The reason I love this fairytale so much is because the children are resourceful. I dislike stories where the heroes/ heroines have to wait for others to save them. Cinderella simply sits and cries and waits for her fairy godmother to appear. Snow White needs to be kissed. The Goose Girl has to be persuaded to talk to a fireplace and must be overheard. Hansel and Gretel, however, are clever and proactive. They scatter stones or bread, they hand the witch a chicken bone to feel instead of Hansel's finger; Gretel pushes the witch inside the oven. They bring home jewels to their poor woodcutter father. Gretel has always been my role model, as a child and even now. If you're in a bad situation, you have to get yourself out of it- or try. You have to act. You can't wait for your fairy godmother to save you.<BR/><BR/>And the very best collection of fairytales out of every single one I've read, out of every culture I've read, is the original collection entitled <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/Selected-Fairy-Tales-Oxford-Legends/dp/0192741624/ref=sr_1_1/105-5674833-4546066?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1184247597&sr=1-1" REL="nofollow">Selected Fairy Tales</A> by Barbara Leonie Picard. Her prose is gorgeous and everything she writes is original. If I'm ever able to write like her, I will have been blessed. <BR/><BR/>Tobie and Anonymous,<BR/><BR/>I'm glad you've read <I>Elijah's Violin.</I> Have you also read <I>The Diamond Tree?</I>Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-90080709813001435842007-07-12T09:37:00.000-04:002007-07-12T09:37:00.000-04:00I'm too lazy to read the whole thing, but it looks...I'm too lazy to read the whole thing, but it looks good. :)<BR/><BR/>Anyway, regarding the first section... I've always felt more along the lines of R' Soloveitchik. Our rebbeim in elementary and high school would emphasize that it was excellent that we were consistently coming up with the chiddushim of the rishonim/acharonim.<BR/><BR/>If anything, what a person may have originally defined as original is often viewed as anything but; more likely, such an understanding was considered and rejected for a variety of reasons.<BR/><BR/>Of course, there are those who take this line of thinking too far - any chiddushim are thrown out because "surely the ____ would have thought of such an idea; it must be that he rejected it."Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-53796245323751177712007-07-12T09:10:00.000-04:002007-07-12T09:10:00.000-04:00Oh, Elijah's Violin!When I began reading your post...Oh, Elijah's Violin!<BR/><BR/>When I began reading your post, I found my thoughts going right to Elijah's Violin, and then I read further and find that much of the post centers on it!<BR/><BR/>I first read -- in full? an excerpt of? -- The Exiled Princess in World Over magazine when I was very little. Both the story and the book from which the note said it came seemed so . . . I don't know the words . . . enigmatic, different, unique, a treasure I was lucky to have found and needed to further explore.<BR/><BR/>How happy I was several years later to receive the book as a present!<BR/><BR/>I miss that book. I miss my childhood.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-14578357470275727422007-07-12T04:54:00.000-04:002007-07-12T04:54:00.000-04:00I LOVE Elijah's Violin! We had it around the house...I LOVE Elijah's Violin! We had it around the house when I was little and I read it all the time.Tobiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14930468887760990485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-49275394757278014102007-07-11T23:59:00.000-04:002007-07-11T23:59:00.000-04:00The idea of Rav Soloveitchik reminded me of a stor...The idea of Rav Soloveitchik reminded me of a story a Rebbe of mine passed on. He was a young yeshiva student in shiur. A fellow bachur suggested an idea and the rebbe said that that idea was in the Ran. The student said, "Wow, I said the Ran's chidush." And the rebbe said, "No. It's yours. You thought of it, so it's your chidush."<BR/><BR/>Forgive me if I missed it - have you posted a list of favorite fairy tales, fables, mosholim, midrashim, etc?rabbi neil fleischmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09733555336540451779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-62470414630915967722007-07-11T23:58:00.000-04:002007-07-11T23:58:00.000-04:00Very enjoyable. I'm also a fan of "Legends of the...Very enjoyable. I'm also a fan of "Legends of the Jews," although you've certainly spent a lot more time with it than I have.<BR/><BR/>Did you ever listen to yuor father's advice and read Dr. Zornberg's books? I don't know exactly what they are, but they're all about Midrashim also. Maybe they should also be on your reading list (then again, I haven't read them, so maybe I shouldn't be vouching for them yet).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-11457924102362790182007-07-11T23:51:00.000-04:002007-07-11T23:51:00.000-04:00Steg and Anonymous,So glad you enjoyed!Anonymous,T...Steg and Anonymous,<BR/><BR/>So glad you enjoyed!<BR/><BR/>Anonymous,<BR/><BR/>This is amusing; Howard Schwartz actually touches upon that idea in his introduction. He writes, "The identification of the <I>Shekhinah</I> with the imprisoned princess does not differ very much from the way in which the figure of the evil stepmother in fairy tales serves as a mask for our own mothers, permitting the child an expression of fear or anger that might otherwise be repressed" (13). <BR/><BR/>Of course, he's speaking specifically about the mothers, while you are addressing the entire idea of the battles between good and evil. I will definitely check out the book when I can, thank you.<BR/><BR/>There's a great line that I read once and have been searching for- someone once wrote, "Fairy tales are a child's blueprint of the world" or "map to the world" or "guide to the world," something along those lines. I've always felt that to be true.Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-34201274200858709842007-07-11T22:30:00.000-04:002007-07-11T22:30:00.000-04:00Absolutely love this post!Chana,there is a certain...Absolutely love this post!<BR/>Chana,there is a certain book you might enjoy reading/add to your library. It's called "The witch must die-the hidden meaning of fairy tales." by Cosdan,Sheldon. The author explores how fairy tales help children deal with psychological conflicts by projecting their own internal struggles between good and evil onto the battles enacted by the characters in the stories.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-74504538246279932472007-07-11T21:27:00.000-04:002007-07-11T21:27:00.000-04:00great post!great post!Steg (dos iz nit der šteg)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07694556690190505030noreply@blogger.com