tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post1401492231284759848..comments2024-03-18T03:40:39.185-04:00Comments on The Curious Jew: Parallel Biblical and Midrashic StoriesChanahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-21122529554103789392007-04-12T18:31:00.000-04:002007-04-12T18:31:00.000-04:00FINALLY!!!!!!C, I had given up on hearing any more...F<BR/>I<BR/>N<BR/>A<BR/>L<BR/>L<BR/>Y<BR/>!!!!!!<BR/><BR/>C, I had given up on hearing any more "thematic" stuff from you... glad i was wrong! <BR/><BR/>this is good stuff (ok, that was a bit of an understatement :-) ). i esp. liked the one with Dovid and Achav (oh, and the reference to the "Isha chachama" from Tekoa was perfectitious :-)... (excuse my daily neoligism :)))..<BR/><BR/>at the seder i was thinking about Makas Bechoros, and the common thread of dis-favored firstborns in the bible came to mind (my apologies to you if you're a bechor :-) )<BR/><BR/>1) Yitzchok vs. Yishmoel<BR/>2) Ya'akov and Eisav<BR/>3) Reuven and Yosef/Yehuda<BR/>4) Menashe and Efraim<BR/>5) All the bechorim who lost the Kehuna to shevet Levi<BR/>6) Kayin and Hevel (Hevel got the favorable treatment)<BR/>[also the story of the coronation of Dovid Hamelech and G-d's reproof to Shmuel Hanavi regarding the oldest son Eliav comes to mind: וַיְהִי בְּבוֹאָם, וַיַּרְא אֶת-אֱלִיאָב; וַיֹּאמֶר, אַךְ נֶגֶד יְהוָה מְשִׁיחוֹ. {ס}<BR/><BR/>ז וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה אֶל-שְׁמוּאֵל, אַל-תַּבֵּט אֶל-מַרְאֵהוּ וְאֶל-גְּבֹהַּ קוֹמָתוֹ--כִּי מְאַסְתִּיהוּ: כִּי לֹא, אֲשֶׁר יִרְאֶה הָאָדָם--כִּי הָאָדָם יִרְאֶה לַעֵינַיִם, וַיהוָה יִרְאֶה לַלֵּבָב]<BR/><BR/>anyways, glad to see ur brain is still working along these lines.<BR/><BR/>oh, and if you have a chance to read nechama leibowitzes stuff (esp. if you could get your hands on her --very hard to come by--Gilyonot, u may find them tantalizing <BR/><BR/><BR/>ben terach-<BR/>why do ppl say "a penny for your thoughts" but then say "here's my two cents" . . . somebody must be making a penny profit here . . . :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-18840749759743065112007-04-12T12:26:00.000-04:002007-04-12T12:26:00.000-04:00thanks so much for that reply- dont get me wrong, ...thanks so much for that reply- dont get me wrong, im an observant jew too ("orthodox"). some counterthoughts:<BR/><BR/>theres a critical point u mentioned- that because something <I>may</I> not be true doesnt make it untrue. eg, if there were 50 stories of people whose wives were wanted by kings, then all you would have is an increasing probability function of that actually happening vs. just ancient folklore which crept in. in which case, any such discussion is moot for us, because however stretched that probability function becomes, you (or i) wouldnt entertain the alternative without an external "proof" making it possible, in which case we no longer even need that probability function. so granted- wary, cautious, etc, it may be, but it is actually irrelevant. <BR/><BR/>also- i hear you about some midrashim being nonliteral, etc. but while on the one hand that would seem like it must be the case (shimshons shoulders were most definitely not 60 amos wide, i dont care what you say), thats too scary a realm to enter, because then what is, what isnt, what must be, what may not be....? and dont midrashim sometimes impact halacha? or dont they ever? and if they do.....? or does that make them impervious to nonliteral transation? but then isnt that circular? so.....you see what i mean. <BR/><BR/>thirdly- wholeheartedly agree that a thorough knowledge of tanach is needed to even become aware of so many of the cool things, like these parallels. eg, dreams, dreams, dreams- yechezkels to nevuchadnezzers. and yes, i agree that many parallels offer possibility of common up with cool symbolics, etc. but arent u ever scared that just because somesthing may make sense, it still may not be true? granted, you can come up with so many brilliant parallels, inspirations thereof, symbolisms, etc- but how do you know theyre a function of truth, and not a function of intelligent creativity? does it matter?<BR/><BR/>anyhow. since you seem to know tanach well, im curious- have you ever read any interpertations about the cryptic words at the end of daniel, about "evening to morning two thousand three years" (something like that), or "time, times, and half a time", and all that stuff which talk about the end of time? do you know of any works that deal with that?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-77895072431670955942007-04-12T11:36:00.000-04:002007-04-12T11:36:00.000-04:00Too much to read carefully; but don't forget to in...Too much to read carefully; but don't forget to include on your list Abraham and the idols vs. Gidon and Daniel.Lab Rabhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16548235776787443321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-1966412084779351662007-04-11T22:59:00.000-04:002007-04-11T22:59:00.000-04:00Ben-Terach,I don't mind the two cents at all! You'...Ben-Terach,<BR/><BR/>I don't mind the two cents at all! <BR/><BR/>You've asked me a really interesting question. I personally find the parallels to be fascinating rather than problematic, but I can see how they would make others hum thoughtfully. I suppose I see the parallels through tinted lenses; I am, after all, an Orthodox Jew, I believe in God and hence am reading the Torah as a religious and literary text combined. <BR/><BR/>I sat in on a very interesting class at UChicago by a famous Professor whose name I'm forgetting at the moment, and I recall that he was disturbed by the most obvious parallels in the Torah- Sarah being taken by the Pharoah/ Avimelech and later Rebecca being placed in the same position. If I'm recalling correctly, he suggested that the story of the woman being desired by a royal figure was a folktale that made its way into the compiled version of the Old Testament. So you're correct that there's critical discussion about this, and I would have to research it further.<BR/><BR/>That being said, I personally have good reason to believe in the veracity of that particular tale, for in my family one woman was desired by (and would have been taken by) the Emir! Hence even if the story <I>was</I> a common folktale, that doesn't necessarily make it untrue. <BR/><BR/>One also has to wonder how to treat the stories in the Bible. Are they all literally true? In the Midrash, for example, they're certainly not all literally true. Perhaps the real message is the "moral" of the allegory or tale or the relation of the character traits each character demonstrates, and the precise methods are only there as examples. I have heard that Rambam treats some tales allegorically (and still don't quite know which ones) so I'd have to look that up...<BR/><BR/>If you ask me personally, do I look at the stories with a critical eye and find the repetition to be evidence of human tampering or suchlike, I'd have to say that I don't. I do, however, find the parallel stories to be evidence of a masterful literary work. The most beautiful and brilliant classics deal with motifs, symbols, metaphors and the like, and parallel stories are both symbolic and excellent. Most beautiful are the ones that aren't necessarily obvious, where you really have to <I>know</I> the Tanakh in order to see the similarities. I think it's easier to be critical of really obvious patterns, but subtle touches are very appreciable. <BR/><BR/>Really, I'd have to do more research and see what others have said- I'm sure the UChicago professor is basing his views on those of others and/or has written a book on the subject- and then I'll hopefully get back to you.<BR/><BR/>Many thanks!Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-85236883544736850952007-04-11T21:47:00.000-04:002007-04-11T21:47:00.000-04:00question- you've placed a positive spin on the "pa...question- you've placed a positive spin on the "parallelness" of the stories; fair enough. <BR/>but doesnt the similarity ever make you suspicious? i suppose if you assume that its all divine, it makes it all the more impressive. but if youre critically looking at the midrashim, neviim, etc- doesnt it strike you as convenient that they're so parallel? 'and amaslai saw the child that he was good, and the cave filled up with light'- doesnt that make the cautious critical you wary? <BR/><BR/>hope you dont mind the two cents; im a blogstranger.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com