tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post1119638695838033102..comments2024-03-18T03:40:39.185-04:00Comments on The Curious Jew: TemplarsChanahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comBlogger135125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-4217646179717289982008-03-11T20:36:00.000-04:002008-03-11T20:36:00.000-04:00Hi Chana.I too went through something very similar...Hi Chana.<BR/><BR/>I too went through something very similar. I was one of the really "good" yeshivah boys with a lot of potential in a black-hat place. Unlike you, however, I came from an assimilated family (how I got to the yeshivah is not for here and now).<BR/><BR/>In the beginning of high school I was a fanatic. But by the end I was a rebel. Why? Because of exactly what you wrote about in this post. Because my rebbeim would even find Torah literature to be "problematic" if it was written from a perspective different from that of the yeshivah (and especially if it came from that frightening yet alluring place called YU).<BR/><BR/>I almost threw away Yiddishkeit after high school. The reason I didn't is because I finally found people, like my family, who were open and tolerant and inquisitive on the one hand, but also deeply devoted to mitzvos and Torah study. Who were committed to excellence in all worlds, not just the world of Torah. Who had true derekh eretz both on the personal and on the intellectual level.<BR/><BR/>So when I read your post I identified with it very strongly. May you find joy and success.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-18701578124012633402008-03-10T22:02:00.000-04:002008-03-10T22:02:00.000-04:00Chana,First – your post was so long and ripe with ...Chana,<BR/><BR/>First – your post was so long and ripe with idea and detail, I can only apologize for the brevity of my off the cuff response. Your multiple subject matters and incisive descriptions are shoddily responded to below.<BR/><BR/>I had a similar experience to you (although I only did summer school at North Shore CDS - it was a lifesaver showing me possibility outside the Jewish cult I dealt with day to day.)<BR/><BR/>I too felt abused on a regular basis, and that was in MO schools. While the abuse was mental (clarifying, for any of you thinking criminal acts took place,) the trauma is life long. Yes, I was sent at the behest of the administration and my parents to numerous social workers and psychologists/psychiatrists (all said I was fine but not responding well to my environment (mom/dad hope brilliant insight was covered by insurance.)) Yes, boarding school was considered. Yes, I chose to first fight and then flee later.<BR/><BR/> For those who like me disagree from the start with the party line, to this day, I advocate the fight. More so, because I am capable of doing so - I feel it is my duty to stand up and defend both myself and those who cannot/will not do so for themselves. My methods differed from Chana’s, but the ideals of standing up for myself, and those who were bullied (by the administration, not to mention the peer group) were similar.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps one of the lasting memes of my Judaic education, is that anyone can be attacked with trumped up (or real) charges against the state. Your prior commenter who compared it to Stalinist propaganda hit the nail on the head. Wait – I will explain before anyone goes crazy.<BR/><BR/>If one studies the use of psychology, propaganda, marketing, and sociology of group/cult think and leadership, in an academically rigorous fashion (yes, I have) - the education system espoused by religious Jewish based schools (as well as other hard line religions,) totalitarian regimes, and cults are remarkably similar in methodology. (Need this statement to be attributed in academic fashion? I will place a simple linked (where possible) bibliography at the end.)) <BR/><BR/>Simplified greatly, it is because these propaganda/mind control techniques work to build a cohesive, non-tolerant of argument, group dynamic. We are not educating our young as Jews, we are creating the future generations of our community deliberately in a manner that resists the outside world. While I disagree with this intellectually, I understand the reasons given and desire to do so.<BR/><BR/>I make no argument about the efficacy of this educational system as it clearly works a great deal of the time. I well understand the normative argument of this methodology in light of a logarithmically rising assimilation and intermarriage rate; we are creating the next generation in the same mold. I have a significant issue with the fact that those who fall through the cracks have no safety net – and are cornered into a fight or flight (in the cases of Chana and myself – both) successive reactions.<BR/><BR/>Normally I am quite combative with those who force their views upon me; but in the case of Jewish education, I have been thinking steadily about a more reasoned approach. I would not try to change the methodology, I am enough of a pragmatist to believe that entirely impossible. I am however pleading with the Jewish community to offer more inclusive programs that better fit children who do not fit the stereotype and mold.<BR/><BR/>A note of caution, frequently, these alternative programs create their own stigma – avoid this at all costs! <BR/><BR/>If I were to have a child one of these days, they wouldn’t go to Telshe or Hillel Torah or Schechter (Chicago’s day schools with a few other choices not listed.) My child wouldn’t wind up in Montessori or North Shore (although that is looking more viable as I write this.) I just don’t have a good choice in Chicago for my child to receive an excellent education, a sense of Judaism without it being forced upon them, and a supportive environment in which to retain a sense of wonder/curiosity/amusement/intellectual freedom.<BR/><BR/>Somebody please help! George Hanus is desperately trying to fund a Jewish education for any youth who (or parents) wants to attend. Be careful Mr. Hanus! The youth may not like what they find there. Offer them alternatives, the current system is broken, and broke!<BR/><BR/>Thanks for giving me a place to share your pain, join your road to an optimistic future, and plea for a better way forward on behalf of our (potential) progeny.<BR/><BR/>A<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>For those of you nay-sayers, yes, Jewish day school education really does follow the same methodology as cults and totalitarian regime propaganda. Feel free to read about it on your own. Its not pretty. Its not necessarily used for evil in the case of our community. It is however the same gun and ammunition.<BR/><BR/>A short sample of readings:<BR/>Age of Propaganda: The Everyday Use and Abuse of Persuasion Anthony Pratkanis & Elliot AronsonOrder <BR/>Battle for the Mind William SargentOrder <BR/>Brainwashing: The Science of Thought Control Kathleen Taylor (Oxford University Press August 24, 2006)Order<BR/>The Anatomy of Illusion: Religious Cults and Destructive PersuasionW. Keiser, Jacqueline L. Keiser (Charles C. Thomas Publishing, 1987)Order <BR/>Bounded Choice: True Believers and Charismatic Cults Janja Lalich (University of California Press, 2004)Order <BR/>Cults and PersonalityFrank J. MacHovec (Charles Thomas Publishing, 1989)Order <BR/>Cults in our MidstMargaret Singer (Jossey-Bass Publishers, 1995)Order <BR/>Cults on Campus: Continuing Challenge Marcia RudinOrder <BR/>The Heart of a Cult Lena Phoenix (Garuda, Inc. September 1, 2006)Order <BR/>The Power of Cult Branding Matthew W. Ragas and Bolivar J. Bueno (Prima Publishing, 2002)Order <BR/>Soul Snatchers Jean-Mari Abgrall (Algora Pub., 1999)Order <BR/>Spiritual Perversion Steve Sanchez (Turnkey Press, February 28, 2005) Order <BR/>Under the Influence: The Destructive Effects of Group Dynamics John D. Goldhammer (Prometheus Books, 1996)Order <BR/>Schein, E. H. Coercive Persuasion. New York, NY: Norton; 1961. <BR/>Chen, T.E.H. Thought Reform of the Chinese Intellectuals. New York, NY: Oxford University Press; 1960. <BR/>Farber, I. E., Harlow, H.F., West, L.J. "Brainwashing, conditioning and DDD: debility, dependency and dread" Sociometry. 1956: 20: 271-285 <BR/>Hinckle, L.E., Wolfe, H.G. "Communist interrogation and indoctrination of enemies of the state." Archives of Neurology and Psychiatry. 1956: 76:115-174. <BR/>Lifton, R.J. "Home by ship: reaction patterns of American prisoners of war repatriated from North Korea" American Journal of Psychiatry. 1954; 110: 732-739 <BR/>Schein, E.H. The Chinese Indoctrination program for prisoners of war" Psychiatry. 1956; 19:149-172. <BR/>Segal, H.A. "Initial psychiatric findings of recently repatriated prisoners of war" American Journal of Psychiatry. 1958; 21:358-363. <BR/>Ofshe, R., Singer, M.T. "Attacks on Peripheral versus central elements of self and the impact of thought reforming techniques" Cultic Studies Journal/ 1986; 3:3-24. <BR/>Singer, M.T., Ofshe, R. Thought Reform and Brainwashing. Document offered as proof of testimony, Queen's High Court, London, on behalf of the London Daily Mail: 1980. <BR/>Singer, M.T. "Group psychodynamics" In: Berkow, R., ed. The Merck Manual. Rahway, NJ: Merck Sharp and Dohme; 1987: 1467-1471. <BR/>Yalom, I., Lieberman, M. AA study of encounter group casualties" Archives of General Psychiatry. 1971; 25:16-30.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-78099593475344872492008-03-10T20:34:00.000-04:002008-03-10T20:34:00.000-04:00Wow! I am recommending this post to every thinking...Wow! I am recommending this post to every thinking Jew. <BR/><BR/>Your tenacity is amazing. No wonder you belong to the Am Kshei Oref!David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-49369369700444255312008-03-09T17:39:00.000-04:002008-03-09T17:39:00.000-04:00Beautiful post.It must have taken some courage to ...Beautiful post.<BR/>It must have taken some courage to write. <BR/> <BR/>Good educators don't get upset when they hear sharp questions which they don't know the answers too - it is a good sign as it often means the students are interested and stimulated in the material.<BR/><BR/>And Chazal were good educators. <BR/>I wonder how these beis yaakov teachers do the mah nishtanah in their sedarim on pesach - they must slap their children for asking disrespectful questions. <BR/><BR/>(Also, one wonders whether any of these teachers have ever read a blatt gemara. Isn't questioning the mark of all jewish halakic literature from the gemara on?)<BR/><BR/>(chazal also understood that patience is required to teach - lo ha-qapdan melamed.)<BR/><BR/>Again, wonderful post.<BR/><BR/>joshAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-25517177098008081262007-10-21T00:47:00.000-04:002007-10-21T00:47:00.000-04:00Wow... this is really inspiring. As a side note, i...Wow... this is really inspiring. As a side note, it does seem that we had very similar roles at our respective Country Day Schools.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-45054909151005290842007-07-23T23:47:00.000-04:002007-07-23T23:47:00.000-04:00My (belated) compliments.My (belated) compliments.MYGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09510670684474219811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-64423039345186930852007-07-18T15:02:00.000-04:002007-07-18T15:02:00.000-04:00FKM, Mesilas Yesharim is not Tanach, it is not Tor...FKM, Mesilas Yesharim is not Tanach, it is not Torah and it was NOT given to Moshe at Sinai. It's a mussar book which speaks to some people, not to others. I disagree that it (as translated by 'aguda') describes how best (or how only) to reach the highest madrega. <BR/><BR/>Extolling lack of thought, questioning, cookie-cutter mentality which is what Chana experienced (and I second that experience though in not as profound a way) takes away ones Godliness, ones Tzelem Elokim. It is people like Chana who realize that such teachers attempt to tear away ones humanity and turn people into sheep and robots. I know what Chana went through - it is not the mussar that she is upset about. It's not being criticized that's the problem. It's being criticized for the WRONG things. You want to criticize me (for example) for not making optimum use my time, for not caring about my friends and family as much as they deserve, for not being patient enought - please, I can use such criticism. But you dare to criticize someone for thinking, for trying to understand truth, for seeking knowledge of HaShem's world, that is tragic. <BR/><BR/>Someone comes and bashes people because they wear sheitels? What chutzpah! Not because the people are 'not on a high enough madrega' what drivel you speak! But because real, honest poskim say there's no problem. Do you really think someone is on a lower religous madrega for not following the most machmir shita? - so you're an ignoramous too. <BR/><BR/>Sorry for the rant, I feel Chana's pain and it just comes out...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-79362523237074015922007-07-17T11:15:00.000-04:002007-07-17T11:15:00.000-04:00I am truly sorry you experienced so much pain duri...I am truly sorry you experienced so much pain during your high school years. During that time you are looking for guidance and support and you didn't receive it. I may not agree with your responses to authority figures, but I do understand that you did what you thought you had to do at the time. You were only a high schooler who felt abused by those who were supposed to be her role models. So, whatever pain you had, I hope you are on your way to finding a way to heal. Be that counseling, a new hashkafa, whatever.<BR/><BR/>However, I do think railing against a Yeshivish or Chareidi mindsight is not the answer. You found what you were looking for in Modern Orthodoxy. OK. Many people have different hashkafas than they were raised with. I understand that you got there in a negative way but you found your home. I just don't think it helps ahavas Yisrael.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-72105843457869661022007-07-10T14:37:00.000-04:002007-07-10T14:37:00.000-04:00Let me give you a few personal examples:1)Most Ash...Let me give you a few personal examples:<BR/><BR/>1)Most Ashkenazi poskim permit the use of sheitels (modest non-ostentatious ones) for married women's hair-covering.<BR/>But it is a "heter". <BR/>There are indeed certain halachic and hashkafic advantages to wearing head-scarves (again, modest and not ostentatious).<BR/>While our fully community approves of sheitels, my wife admires chareidi women who look less formal and fashionable by insisting of wearing only head-scarves.<BR/>We live with a certain tension that may or may not be resolved in the future. But we are open to growing slowly in this area.<BR/>And it would be a big mistake for my wife to go to a shiur to hear Rebbetzin so-ans-so blast sheitels and label all sheitel-wearers as evil temptresses.<BR/>Maybe the women in other communities who have adopted this stringency need to hear that message given in that way. But not my wife at this stage.<BR/><BR/>2)All poskim allow one to rely on reputable kashrus organizations to consume food labeled kosher.<BR/>We are all well aware that awful mistakes do take place in the kashrus industry and we all get nervous from time to time.<BR/>I know of people who do not eat commercially produced meat and additionally will take off the terumos and ma'asaros on all produce themselves, despite the hechsher on the fruit store.<BR/><BR/>I am not adopting this stringency but I have no problem admiring those who do.<BR/>I live with a certain tension in this area and I am open to gradually growing in this direction.<BR/><BR/>3)A project for kollel students has been started to enlist them in the effort to stem the tide of the "off the derech" epidemic. It involves a considerable investment of time and emotional energy.<BR/>I have my hands full at the moment, and can't see where i could make the time, but people who are just as busy as myself found a way to fit these troubled souls into their hectic schedule anyway.<BR/>I admire them and wish I could be on their level of mesiras nefesh.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps I really could have used a kick in the pants by someone to get me to give up some break time for these kids. <BR/>Don't I have a debt to my teachers who gave up their precious time to inspire me? Don't I owe it to Hashem to give back to what I recieved to His less fortunate children?<BR/><BR/>There is alway more to do in Judaism, is all areas of life. The examples are endless.<BR/>Do you see what I am getting at?<BR/>Sometimes we shoot the messenger and forget that there might be some abstract value in the message despite ourselves.Freelance Kiruv Maniac (Mr. Hyde)https://www.blogger.com/profile/10298176204317506218noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-77373183431485680752007-07-10T14:00:00.000-04:002007-07-10T14:00:00.000-04:00Could you give an example of a different setting w...Could you give an example of a different setting where you believe this could work?Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-15629106280910983772007-07-10T13:33:00.000-04:002007-07-10T13:33:00.000-04:00>"Your assertion that the Agudah way is the one, t...>"Your assertion that the Agudah way is the one, true and correct way is perplexing."<<BR/><BR/>Inasmuch as they were promoting the achievement of the highest levels of Mesilas Yesharim, you have yet to provide an argument that this is not inaccurate.<BR/><BR/>I do not defend your teachers if they had perverted the message of this classic work of spiritual excellence that is universally acclaimed across all political lines as far as I am aware.<BR/><BR/>>" Your further statement that the only reason my teachers were at fault was because they tried to inform me of this when I was "too young" or "too stupid" or otherwise "too something" to understand is...incredible."<<BR/><BR/>I don't recall using any the words that you have put in quotes in my name. I was vague because I wasn't there and I don't know the people involved.<BR/><BR/>>"Not because I say I am the smartest person on the planet- I'm not. But because you honestly believe the only problem with what happened in this scenario is that we the students didn't measure up to our kind teachers' flattering but unrealistic expectations of us."<<BR/><BR/>The way you put this problem is very distorted. You think that I am blaming YOU for not measuring up?<BR/>I am not blaming you whatsoever. I thought I was perfectly clear on this.<BR/>I was squarely laying the blame at the teachers who thought they could force a certain kind of spiritual growth that was out of sync with their students' reality. (to put it very mildly reading your account)<BR/><BR/>I'm just saying that in a different setting, the same message would have been appropriate and justified. (Provided that they were not distorting the sources that I think they were using.)Freelance Kiruv Maniac (Mr. Hyde)https://www.blogger.com/profile/10298176204317506218noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-39630468120708834962007-07-10T13:04:00.000-04:002007-07-10T13:04:00.000-04:00FKM,You do realize that the implication that I am ...FKM,<BR/><BR/>You do realize that the implication that I am somehow sub-par, below standard, "not up to the level" or "not on the right madreigah" is in and of itself offensive, yes? <BR/><BR/>Surely this is not your answer to all such situations- to claim that the teacher was expecting "too much" of the poor students when it comes to hoping that we all grow up to be supportive kollel wives and/or Chumash teachers?<BR/><BR/>I have read some of Mesilas Yesharim but would have to look it over before agreeing to any point you could conceivably make. As I recall, the points themselves were good; the way the work was taught to me was problematic since ideas were applied far beyond the scope of what the Ramchal had written and twisted to fit a certain perception and worldview.<BR/><BR/>Your assertion that the Agudah way is the one, true and correct way is perplexing. Your further statement that the only reason my teachers were at fault was because they tried to inform me of this when I was "too young" or "too stupid" or otherwise "too something" to understand is...incredible.<BR/><BR/>Not because I say I am the smartest person on the planet- I'm not. But because you honestly believe the only problem with what happened in this scenario is that we the students didn't measure up to our kind teachers' flattering but unrealistic expectations of us.<BR/><BR/>Wow.Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-88104854096256279542007-07-10T12:12:00.000-04:002007-07-10T12:12:00.000-04:00Well, no, I meant UNimpeachable.I sort of made a f...Well, no, I meant UNimpeachable.<BR/>I sort of made a fool of myself thinking that impeachable means that you CANNOT impeach it, even though that clearly makes no sense.<BR/>Please forgive the confusion.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, has Chana read Mesilas Yasharim? Will she agree that it describes the ultimate ideal service of God which only a select few can ever get to the top?<BR/>This sefer clearly states that there are LEVELS of excellence in worshiping God and not all Jews are on the same level. Not by a long shot.<BR/>So when you have a chareidi teacher extoling the virtues of the highest levels of the Mesilas Yesharim to a general audience, you mat get a few different reactions:<BR/>1)This person is off his rocker if he/she wants to demand this from ME.<BR/>2) This is an awfully high level that this teacher is demanding. I hope to one day reach that level by growing in that direction very carefully and gradually. <BR/><BR/>For what its worth, I think it is a complete mistake from a pedegogic view, to demand such high levels from people who are not asking or ready for them. Avodas Hashem is a very personal thing, and although one should never stagnate or grow complacent, it's very hard to hear someone else tell you that you are below standard.<BR/>I deeply sympathize with Chana's negative experience in this regard.Freelance Kiruv Maniac (Mr. Hyde)https://www.blogger.com/profile/10298176204317506218noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-54241013239026932192007-07-09T16:41:00.000-04:002007-07-09T16:41:00.000-04:00Hi Chana,First of all there was a misunderstanding...Hi Chana,<BR/>First of all there was a misunderstanding when I was commenting on Ezzie's blog some time ago so if I came across as harsh, I apologize. I thought Ezzie was being critized and this is why I responded that way. My apologies. I am also a person who stands up and defends other people when something is wrong so I can totally understand where you are coming from when you talk about what happened in your school.<BR/><BR/>Secondly, your former school sounds like a jail house. <BR/>Thank G-d you left that place. <BR/><BR/>Thirdly, some time ago I felt exactly the same way you described :<BR/> <BR/><I>you are hurt on all sides, hurt from the religious angles and other angles and you are sick, so sick and disgusted by the way they treat you, the way they think of themselves as righteous people when all they do is hurt and ruin you. They are killing people's souls but they don't see it- they are breaking people but they don't care.</I><BR/><BR/>Lonely Man of Faith and Halakhic Man are some of my favorite books. It also helped me to read Michtav M'Eliyahu. I went to the grave of Baal Shem (not the Baal Shem Tov) another tzadik (a tzaddik who was harassed and hurt by his own Orthodox community) and cried by his grave site. I felt connected to him. Very soon I met a haredi rabbi, who listened to me and gave me good advice and gave me a lot of support. Everyday I think about him and thank him , he is a very kind person. <BR/><BR/>I totally agree with your friend:<BR/>Do you know how difficult that is? I have a friend; she was once told, "You can't judge Judaism by the Jews."<BR/><BR/>I respect you a lot and I think you are a very brave girl. I posted some stuff revolving such issues (like my post on Orthoskeptics- against all odds) but I stopped for a while cause it still makes me feel bitter.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-70630009753788431562007-07-09T14:12:00.000-04:002007-07-09T14:12:00.000-04:00FKM-Do you mean impeccable?FKM-<BR/>Do you mean impeccable?M.R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01871988896906196843noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-63617551707912047192007-07-08T23:40:00.000-04:002007-07-08T23:40:00.000-04:00Anonymous 6:54,I am disgusted by this site. Yes, d...Anonymous 6:54,<BR/><BR/>I am disgusted by this site. Yes, disgusted. Because while Chana is using her blog to encourage others out there to hold onto Yiddishkeit, your site just turns people off. What would happen if say a potentially frum Jew stumbled onto this site and decided that the Yeshiva school system was too hard to deal with, thus turning him away forever? You may think my example is extreme, but I assure you it's not.<BR/><BR/>Yes, I understand the lack of yeshivos in our society, rachmana l'tzlan. But there are more tactful ways to deal with it then putting it up in such a tasteless manner where all this becomes is a huge "vent" for lashon hara and turning people away from the yeshiva world.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-67339141299007161272007-07-08T18:54:00.000-04:002007-07-08T18:54:00.000-04:00See the new blogg where students and parents can v...See the new blogg where students and parents can vent<BR/>"Yeshivah Crises"<BR/>see:<BR/>www.yeshivahcrises.blogspot.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-15780211968877918092007-07-08T13:04:00.000-04:002007-07-08T13:04:00.000-04:00Didn't your mothers ever tell you if you don't hav...Didn't your mothers ever tell you if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all. The girl had a hard time. Don't be giving her a hard time telling her she didn't.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-67727724416629914952007-07-08T12:58:00.000-04:002007-07-08T12:58:00.000-04:00Anonymous 2:00,While i personally am not a fan of ...Anonymous 2:00,<BR/><BR/>While i personally am not a fan of vulgar language, I understand where Chana is coming from while using it here. There are two ways one can use bad language: 1) To degrade the thing one is talking about (this is the method you refer to, the one that is used so often in our society and only sounds disgusting in the end). 2) To express emotion. Sometimes, a person feels a release in using language that is "bad" precisely because it expresses intense emotion in a shocking manner (that is, shocking to those of us who are sensitive enough to see it). I believe that Chana is choosing the latter method. While I would personally try to avoid such methods, I can understand why Chana has chosen this route.<BR/><BR/>Also, notice the sophistication (yes, I know that sounds ironic) that Chana uses in her speech here. She's not doing it to sound cool or to sound nasty, she's using it to express her intense emotions. Again, I'm not advocating it, but I understand it.<BR/><BR/>And by the way, anonymous 2:00, I applaud you for your sensitivity. Because so many of us have become so immune to the terrible language that is used in our society, unfortunately. You stand as a bold exception to the rule, and I hope that you will continue to remain strong against outside influences.Rebeccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04466262450322664150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-49918273261843661132007-07-08T07:17:00.000-04:002007-07-08T07:17:00.000-04:00>"Seriously though, go ahead- do explain why the A...>"Seriously though, go ahead- do explain why the Agudah hashkafa is "higher" or "better." I'm curious as to what you'll say."<<BR/><BR/>You are the curious Jew after all. Now let's get started:<BR/><BR/>I would like to begin with "Mesilas Yesharim" by Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzato.<BR/><BR/>Can we agree that his book is an "impeachable" source of Jewish ethics? Do you know of any Orthodox Rabbi in the passed 300 years who took issue with any of his ideas in this book?<BR/>I don't think so.<BR/><BR/> If you would find one, I would have to retract the "impeachable" label. If not, we'll be ready for the next step.<BR/>Fair?Freelance Kiruv Maniac (Mr. Hyde)https://www.blogger.com/profile/10298176204317506218noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-23717238961590951492007-07-08T04:13:00.000-04:002007-07-08T04:13:00.000-04:00Chana,You obviously went through a lot of pain, an...Chana,<BR/>You obviously went through a lot of pain, and I commend your strength and resourcefulness for being able to eventually overcome and heal from a situation which caused you so much greif. I would not call your story an inspirational one; more than anything I think it demonstrates the terrible reality of many of our current Jewish school systems, and the damage they can inflict on students. You, Chana, were lucky enough to have the bright mind, loveing parents, and brazen personality to fight your way through it, and eventually find what you found to be truly meaningful. Yes, your "survival" was compelling to read about, but at the same time I was so saddened to read about a school experience which should never have been experienced. It's stories like these that make me think, that more than anything, the people who most deeply affect others, are teachers. The way to influence people's lives the most, is by becoming a teacher.<BR/>Chana, I have no idea what your future career goals are, but I only hope that you can use your own experience to help better the Jewish educatiponal system in some way. And to those who are considering education as a career, I hope Chana's story will have a profound affect on you. Whether you are yeshivish, right-wing, left-wing, modern ortodox, whatever label you want to give yourself, it doesn't matter, I only hope that you will recognize the needs of people like Chana, recognize that not everyone fits into the same box, that questions need to be addressed directly and honostly, and more than anything I think, that ALL people need to be treated with absolute respect.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-16839940290143992262007-07-08T02:02:00.000-04:002007-07-08T02:02:00.000-04:00Chana,Wow. Very powerful post. Of course, anyone...Chana,<BR/>Wow. Very powerful post. Of course, anyone that can successfully reference Ann Rynd, the Rav, and Rav Hirsch is tops in my book.Neil Harrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12797772082427806345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-78895180655978677062007-07-06T13:23:00.000-04:002007-07-06T13:23:00.000-04:00Beautiful and moving. I went through the Yes...Beautiful and moving. <BR/><BR/> I went through the Yeshiva system growing up and I too was lucky enough to have parents who understood that just because I did not agree with what my yeshiva preached, did not make me a *bad* person. I applaud your open mindedness and ability to work through what you went through on your own. You are a true Jew. The one who loves the religion for what it is and not one who practices it to just fit in. You have found the Torah within yourself instead of forcing the mold on to yourself. You have found your path to joy and appreciation of what it means to you to be a Jew, and that is all that counts. Growing up in Flatbush I too was disgusted at times. I however was able to just fake what I had to, as to not get in *trouble* in Yeshiva. I am passive enough, or not strong enough, to not fight the "system",I just ignore it, but I support your fight and if need be, will be standing beside you WHEN the time comes to stand up for a religion that has turned from a beautiful practice to the ridiculous excuse of what being Jewish means.<BR/> Also, For the people who say that what Chana went through was nothing, you are surely a complete bunch of fools. Real morons. How would you react if your child came home from Yeshiva or Bais Yaakov one day feeling the way she did? Would you do nothing? Would you be those parents who would stick up for the school instead of their own child? I am sure that will create a tremendous atmosphere of trust and love in your house. Everything that we as adults do today is a directly related to the way that we were brought up and experiences as children. So really, stop being idiots and try to understand what it means to be ridiculed, shamed, embarrassed and insulted by *authority* figures, and to have to go through all of that as a child and teenager<BR/> Never back down Chana, always fight for what you believe in!!!<BR/>~ Yaakov who went to :<BR/>Chaim Berlin<BR/>Torah Temimah<BR/>Toras MosheYaakovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17537858102136984614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-30910722830815610992007-07-06T12:15:00.000-04:002007-07-06T12:15:00.000-04:00" I don't dare deny that the other 15% is %*%%#@!&..." I don't dare deny that the other 15% is %*%%#@!&^*)($! enough to drive anyone to distraction!)" <BR/><BR/>FKM,<BR/><BR/>I appreciate this modeh al h'aemes :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12970718.post-23919960528734078642007-07-06T10:24:00.000-04:002007-07-06T10:24:00.000-04:00Seriously though, go ahead- do explain why the Agu...Seriously though, go ahead- do explain why the Agudah hashkafa is "higher" or "better." I'm curious as to what you'll say.Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17655144434904957767noreply@blogger.com